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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 1: Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:25 pm
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Are Jews worried that their Children turn to Christianity?

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I have heard that some Jews are worried about their children becoming Christian, because by that way they could reject moral and do sin. Is this common concern among Jews?

And if it is really true that some reject Judaism and turn to Christianity so that they could do whatever they want, I hope that they would get this message:

For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
Mat. 5:20

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

Little children, let no one lead you astray. He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 2: Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:38 pm
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Re: Are Jews worried that their Children turn to Christianit

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1213 wrote:
I have heard that some Jews are worried about their children becoming Christian, because by that way they could reject moral and do sin. Is this common concern among Jews?

Where did you hear this? If not from some Jews themselves, you probably should ignore it. Lots of people make up stuff about other people.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 3: Wed Mar 19, 2014 4:18 pm
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Re: Are Jews worried that their Children turn to Christianit

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1213 wrote:

I have heard that some Jews are worried about their children becoming Christian...

Not so much children as grandchildren, thus the concern about intermarriage.

Old joke among Jews:

"What do you call the grandchildren of intermarried Jews?"

"Christians."

We are a very small people. Roughly half of each generation of Jews is lost to assimilation, intermarriage, and just apathy and "drifting away." It's a concern for us, and I for one see no reason to apologize for it.
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...because by that way they could reject moral and do sin. Is this common concern among Jews?

No. That is nonsense, and assumes a kind of "superior attitude" among Jews that we do not have. Judaism is DIFFERENT from Christianity, not "better" -- and for the record, it is CHRISTIANS who are obsessed with "sin" and "doing sin" and "being saved from sin." "Sin" isn't even the same concept for Jews as it is for Christians, but I have neither the time nor the energy to host a seminar on the subject today.

I don't know where you heard this, but it's a steaming heap of garbage, and vaguely antisemitic garbage at that. In the context of that claim, so are the quotes that followed, since they all imply that Christians are superior to Jews. That's nonsense, too.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 4: Wed Mar 19, 2014 4:55 pm
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Re: Are Jews worried that their Children turn to Christianit

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1213 wrote:

For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
Mat. 5:20


I enjoy genuine laughter every time I see this verse.

This verse supposedly came from the same guy who used to sit around and rant about how unrighteous the scribes and Pharisees were:


Matt.23

[13] But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
[14] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
[15] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
[16] Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
[23] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
[25] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
[27] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
[29] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,


According to these rants of Jesus about how unrighteous the scribes and Pharisees are it wouldn't take much at all for a person to exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees.

Wink

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 5: Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:05 pm
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[Replying to post 4 by Divine Insight]

You're right -- and I confess I've never noticed the irony there till you pointed it out. Well done!

Of course, I feel compelled to point out that, in terms of the "schools of thought" in Judaism at the time, Jesus was a Pharisee himself. A little off-center even for the Pharisees of the time, but that was his basic approach. The Gospel writers seemed to have used the word in a different sense, more like "the establishment" or the like in today's vernacular.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 6: Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:09 am
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Re: Are Jews worried that their Children turn to Christianit

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Divine Insight wrote:

1213 wrote:

For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
Mat. 5:20


I enjoy genuine laughter every time I see this verse.

This verse supposedly came from the same guy who used to sit around and rant about how unrighteous the scribes and Pharisees were:


Matt.23

[13] But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
[14] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
[15] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
[16] Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
[23] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
[25] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
[27] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
[29] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,


According to these rants of Jesus about how unrighteous the scribes and Pharisees are it wouldn't take much at all for a person to exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees.

Wink

Jesus asks: Are you righteous Nickman?
Nickman: Yes Sir!
Jesus: What about those whitewashed tombs?
Nickman: $hit!!!

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 7: Thu Mar 20, 2014 2:45 pm
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Re: Are Jews worried that their Children turn to Christianit

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cnorman18 wrote:

We are a very small people. Roughly half of each generation of Jews is lost to assimilation, intermarriage, and just apathy and "drifting away." It's a concern for us, and I for one see no reason to apologize for it.


I think that is not bad and actually I also hope that Jews don’t become Christians. I rather hope that they remain Jews, but also become disciples of Jesus. In my opinion Christian doesn’t anymore mean disciple of Jesus, because they are not loyal or faithful to God or Jesus but rather follow somebody else’s teachings than teachings of Jesus. (It seems to me for example that they have rejected first two Commandments).

I think being disciple of Jesus is not in contradiction with being Jew. Jesus didn’t come to abolish Law or Prophets. He was also Jew and didn’t want to change that. According to his words, he came to declare forgiveness and repentance by authority that God had given to him. That is why I think Jews shouldn’t turn to Christianity, but remain Jews. And this is what I hope also all young Jews would know, because I think they make mistake, if they turn to Christianity. Unfortunately it seems to me that they have not good chance to know what Jesus really taught and that is why I am concerned that they make bad choice.

Also in my opinion it would be good if all Jews would know better what Jesus really taught because I believe that one day one man comes to their rebuilt temple and declare to be God and Jesus and if people don’t know Jesus, they can easily be misled by great miracles.

cnorman18 wrote:
I don't know where you heard this, but it's a steaming heap of garbage, and vaguely antisemitic garbage at that. In the context of that claim, so are the quotes that followed, since they all imply that Christians are superior to Jews. That's nonsense, too.


I think those scriptures does not mean that Jews couldn’t be righteous. And I think that does not mean that Christians are better than Jews. In my opinion Jews that keep faithfully the first two Commandments are more righteous than many Christians.

McCulloch wrote:

Where did you hear this?


I don’t remember, probably it was from some internet forum. Maybe not good source.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 8: Sun Mar 23, 2014 9:59 am
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Re: Are Jews worried that their Children turn to Christianit

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1213 wrote:

cnorman18 wrote:

We are a very small people. Roughly half of each generation of Jews is lost to assimilation, intermarriage, and just apathy and "drifting away." It's a concern for us, and I for one see no reason to apologize for it.


I think that is not bad and actually I also hope that Jews don’t become Christians. I rather hope that they remain Jews, but also become disciples of Jesus.

I thank you for your appreciation of the Jewish religion, but that is not possible.
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In my opinion Christian doesn’t anymore mean disciple of Jesus, because they are not loyal or faithful to God or Jesus but rather follow somebody else’s teachings than teachings of Jesus. (It seems to me for example that they have rejected first two Commandments).

I think being disciple of Jesus is not in contradiction with being Jew. Jesus didn’t come to abolish Law or Prophets. He was also Jew and didn’t want to change that. According to his words, he came to declare forgiveness and repentance by authority that God had given to him.

And that is specifically WHY it is impossible for anyone to be a Jew and either a Christian or a "disciple of Jesus" at the same time. For Jews, NO MAN has or could have that authority. For Jews, GOD HIMSELF doesn't have the authority to forgive ALL sins. A sin against another person can only be forgiven by that person. If you hit me in the face with a brick, what right does God Himself have to forgive that? Making that claim -- and I am not at all sure that the real Jesus, if there was one, ever did -- places him above God, and that is not acceptable to Jews.
Quote:

That is why I think Jews shouldn’t turn to Christianity, but remain Jews. And this is what I hope also all young Jews would know, because I think they make mistake, if they turn to Christianity. Unfortunately it seems to me that they have not good chance to know what Jesus really taught and that is why I am concerned that they make bad choice.

Also in my opinion it would be good if all Jews would know better what Jesus really taught because I believe that one day one man comes to their rebuilt temple and declare to be God and Jesus and if people don’t know Jesus, they can easily be misled by great miracles.

The hard part there is determining "what Jesus really taught." All we have is the New Testament, and if that is not reliable -- and I for one don't think that it is -- the "real teachings" of Jesus simply are not recoverable at this late date. Pauline Christianity is what we have today; any other point of view is essentially, well, made up. There are lots of theories about what Jesus "really taught." There is basically no evidence better than that in the NT to back any of them up. Obscure and disputed old manuscripts won't get us there.

Thanks for your post. I obviously don't agree with all of it, but I do agree with your view that Jews shouldn't become Christians.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 9: Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:55 pm
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Re: Are Jews worried that their Children turn to Christianit

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[Replying to post 8 by cnorman18]

I agree. Modern Christianity is Pauline and trying to wiggle Law observance into it is absurd.

Paul calls his observance "garbage" to be discarded in order to receive the greater righteousness of the Spirit.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians%203&version=NIV

In order to become a Law observing Jesus follower on would have to discard the NT completely.

The whole thing is skewed toward Paul's interpretation anyway. They came a close as possible to Jesus denouncing the Law without him becoming an obvious candidate of being a test from God.


Quote:

Deuteronomy 13

New International Version (NIV)


Worshiping Other Gods

13 [a]If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,” 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 10: Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:05 pm
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Re: Are Jews worried that their Children turn to Christianit

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cnorman18 wrote:

And that is specifically WHY it is impossible for anyone to be a Jew and either a Christian or a "disciple of Jesus" at the same time. For Jews, NO MAN has or could have that authority. For Jews, GOD HIMSELF doesn't have the authority to forgive ALL sins. A sin against another person can only be forgiven by that person. If you hit me in the face with a brick, what right does God Himself have to forgive that? Making that claim -- and I am not at all sure that the real Jesus, if there was one, ever did -- places him above God, and that is not acceptable to Jews.


I think God is forgiving the unfaithfulness or unrighteousness towards him.

Jesus didn’t place him above God, because he said:

This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
John 17:3

I said 'I am going to my Father;' for the Father is greater than I.
John 14:28

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