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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 1: Sun Mar 30, 2014 6:41 am
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New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34)

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I would like to know, what Jews think about the New Covenant that is introduced in the book of Jeremiah?

Behold, the days come, says Yahweh, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke, although I was a husband to them, says Yahweh. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says Yahweh: I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people: and they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know Yahweh; for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says Yahweh: for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more.
Jeremiah 31:31-34

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 2: Sun Mar 30, 2014 12:04 pm
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Re: New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34)

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[Replying to post 1 by 1213]

Many Christians read this as a "prophecy" of Jesus and the "New Covenant," but it is understood by Jews to be a prophecy of the restoration of the Temple and the city of Jerusalem after the Exile in Babylon, which did in fact occur. That's pretty clear if you read the rest of the chapter about "Those who survive the sword," "planting vineyards," and so on. Look at verse 23-25: "This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: “When I bring them back from captivity, the people in the land of Judah and in its towns will once again use these words: ‘The Lord bless you, you prosperous city, you sacred mountain.’ 24 People will live together in Judah and all its towns—farmers and those who move about with their flocks. 25 I will refresh the weary and satisfy the faint.” Note also that in verse 38, Jeremiah talks explicitly about the rebuilding of the city's walls and towers.

Of course, as always, I note that Christians may read any passage in the Hebrew Bible in any way they choose -- as long as they don't try to tell us Jews that WE have to read it in the same way.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 3: Sun Mar 30, 2014 12:26 pm
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Yes in fact the author of the book of Hebrews uses the same text just changing "law" to "laws" Obviously because the author wanted the text to show that the Law had been annulled.

Quote:

Hebrews 8:7-11

New International Version (NIV)


7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said


“The days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.

9
It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.

10
This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.

11
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.



Hebrews 10:14-18

New International Version (NIV)


14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:



16
“This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”

17 Then he adds:


“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”

18 And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.


I would add that no person was or will ever be made perfect IMO It was as much a false prophesy from Christianity as for the Babylon exiles.

And doubly false for Christianity because the author of Hebrews perverted the text to exclude exactly what was prophesied. That being perfect intuitive obedience to the Law. Replacing it instead with some inward morality and belief system Christianity has been infighting about from its very beginning.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 4: Mon Mar 31, 2014 3:19 pm
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Re: New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34)

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cnorman18 wrote:

Many Christians read this as a "prophecy" of Jesus and the "New Covenant," but it is understood by Jews to be a prophecy of the restoration of the Temple and the city of Jerusalem after the Exile in Babylon, which did in fact occur. That's pretty clear if you read the rest of the chapter about "Those who survive the sword," "planting vineyards," and so on. Look at verse 23-25: "This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: “When I bring them back from captivity, the people in the land of Judah and in its towns will once again use these words: ‘The Lord bless you, you prosperous city, you sacred mountain.’ 24 People will live together in Judah and all its towns—farmers and those who move about with their flocks. 25 I will refresh the weary and satisfy the faint.” Note also that in verse 38, Jeremiah talks explicitly about the rebuilding of the city's walls and towers.


Ok. In that case, what do you think, has this also happened “I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it”?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 5: Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:23 pm
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Re: New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34)

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1213 wrote:

cnorman18 wrote:

Many Christians read this as a "prophecy" of Jesus and the "New Covenant," but it is understood by Jews to be a prophecy of the restoration of the Temple and the city of Jerusalem after the Exile in Babylon, which did in fact occur. That's pretty clear if you read the rest of the chapter about "Those who survive the sword," "planting vineyards," and so on. Look at verse 23-25: "This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: “When I bring them back from captivity, the people in the land of Judah and in its towns will once again use these words: ‘The Lord bless you, you prosperous city, you sacred mountain.’ 24 People will live together in Judah and all its towns—farmers and those who move about with their flocks. 25 I will refresh the weary and satisfy the faint.” Note also that in verse 38, Jeremiah talks explicitly about the rebuilding of the city's walls and towers.


Ok. In that case, what do you think, has this also happened “I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it”?


Yes, certainly. Since the fall of the Temple, no matter where we have been scattered, we have survived and remained faithful, even in the face of unrelenting pressure to convert or assimilate or otherwise abandon our faith and community -- suffering oppressive laws that, e.g., forbade Jews from owning land or working at the most common trades, that compelled us to live in separate communities, and that not infrequently sent us into exile after relieving us of all our worldly goods (Jews have been expelled from every nation in Europe at least once). Not to mention that we have remained faithful and refused to yield even when imprisoned, tortured, or burned alive with our families. We have not abandoned our Law even after all that, and those that think otherwise -- well, let's just say that we don't acknowledge their authority to judge us.

Some, in every generation, DO abandon Judaism and become followers of other faiths, and they have that right; still, they are a sorrow to us. Some, too, become "secular Jews" and no longer practice the religion -- but many, if not most, of these still proudly identify themselves as Jews and remain faithful to the Jewish community and people. And -- even though they no longer practice the religion -- the overwhelming majority of those secular Jews still circumcise their sons at eight days, the sign of the OLDEST covenant, that of Abraham. "Cultural Jews" who have been "nonreligious" for generations still keep that tradition.

Yes, our practices have changed. In our belief, they are supposed to, and others don't get a vote on how faithful we have been. If they ever HAD had a vote, we'd have disappeared long, long ago, either forced to abandon the Torah and embrace the religions of those who persecuted us -- or simply murdered. Enough attempts of that kind have been made over the centuries, and enough of us have died rather than give in, for it to be clear that I speak the truth.

As I've noted before: Pharaonic Egypt is gone. Babylon is gone. Persia, and Assyria, and Imperial Rome -- gone. The Edomites, the Amalekites, the Ammonites -- all gone. So are the Czarists and the Nazis.

But, even as few and as scattered as we are -- we're still here.

Written in our hearts? Where else could it be written, considering all the above?

Thanks for asking.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 6: Tue Apr 01, 2014 9:45 am
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Re: New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34)

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cnorman18 wrote:

As I've noted before: Pharaonic Egypt is gone. Babylon is gone. Persia, and Assyria, and Imperial Rome -- gone. The Edomites, the Amalekites, the Ammonites -- all gone. So are the Czarists and the Nazis.

But, even as few and as scattered as we are -- we're still here.

Written in our hearts? Where else could it be written, considering all the above?

Thanks for asking.


Thanks for your answer, although I don’t agree with all of your thoughts.

However I think the fact that Jews have lasted in spite of all adversity is great proof for Bible and its God to be true.

Do you agree that the scattering is because Jews have not always been faithful to God?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 7: Tue Apr 01, 2014 10:06 am
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Re: New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34)

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1213 wrote:

cnorman18 wrote:

As I've noted before: Pharaonic Egypt is gone. Babylon is gone. Persia, and Assyria, and Imperial Rome -- gone. The Edomites, the Amalekites, the Ammonites -- all gone. So are the Czarists and the Nazis.

But, even as few and as scattered as we are -- we're still here.

Written in our hearts? Where else could it be written, considering all the above?

Thanks for asking.


Thanks for your answer, although I don’t agree with all of your thoughts.

However I think the fact that Jews have lasted in spite of all adversity is great proof for Bible and its God to be true.

Do you agree that the scattering is because Jews have not always been faithful to God?

I don't know. Maybe. That's for God to judge, the way I look at it. Hard to think that we'd all still be punished for the misdeeds of people who lived two thousand years ago.

There is a Jewish tradition -- it's in the Talmud, I think -- that the Jews were dispersed so that other peoples could come in contact with the truth of the God of Israel. But ultimately, as I say, I think that's God's business. Our job is to do the best we can now.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 8: Tue Apr 01, 2014 10:19 am
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Re: New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34)

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cnorman18 wrote:

I don't know. Maybe. That's for God to judge, the way I look at it. Hard to think that we'd all still be punished for the misdeeds of people who lived two thousand years ago.

There is a Jewish tradition -- it's in the Talmud, I think -- that the Jews were dispersed so that other peoples could come in contact with the truth of the God of Israel. But ultimately, as I say, I think that's God's business. Our job is to do the best we can now.


I believe that is the reason because of these:

"'But if you will not listen to me, and will not do all these commandments; and if you shall reject my statutes, and if your soul abhors my ordinances, so that you will not do all my commandments, but break my covenant; I also will do this to you: I will appoint terror over you, even consumption and fever, that shall consume the eyes, and make the soul to pine away; and you will sow your seed in vain, for your enemies will eat it.
Leviticus 26:14-16

I will scatter you among the nations, and I will draw out the sword after you: and your land will be a desolation, and your cities shall be a waste.
Leviticus 26:33

However, I am really glad that there must have been improvement because this have come true at least partly.

It shall happen, when all these things are come on you, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before you, and you shall call them to mind among all the nations, where Yahweh your God has driven you, and shall return to Yahweh your God, and shall obey his voice according to all that I command you this day, you and your children, with all your heart, and with all your soul; that then Yahweh your God will turn your captivity, and have compassion on you, and will return and gather you from all the peoples, where Yahweh your God has scattered you. If any of your outcasts are in the uttermost parts of the heavens, from there will Yahweh your God gather you, and from there will he bring you back:
Deuteronomy 30:1-4

Unfortunately it seems to me that there is still much adversity ahead and all is not yet clear.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 9: Tue Apr 01, 2014 1:12 pm
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Re: New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34)

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[Replying to post 8 by 1213]

Like I said: Maybe.

If there is anything we have learned over the course of four millennia, it is that the meaning of events is sometimes only clear long after the fact -- e.g., Joseph being sold into slavery. We are still living in history, and the most significant events in the history of the Jewish people since the fall of the Temple -- the Shoah and the reestablishment of the Jewish nation -- have occurred in living memory, within the last century. That is an eyeblink in time, from our perspective.

God is the only Judge. I don't say that we've learned that, too, because we've known that from the beginning.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 10: Tue Apr 01, 2014 5:43 pm
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postroad wrote:

Yes in fact the author of the book of Hebrews uses the same text just changing "law" to "laws" Obviously because the author wanted the text to show that the Law had been annulled.

Quote:

Hebrews 8:7-11

New International Version (NIV)


7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said . . .



10:17-18 Then he adds:


“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”

18 And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.


I would add that no person was or will ever be made perfect IMO It was as much a false prophesy from Christianity as for the Babylon exiles.

And doubly false for Christianity because the author of Hebrews perverted the text to exclude exactly what was prophesied. That being perfect intuitive obedience to the Law. Replacing it instead with some inward morality and belief system Christianity has been infighting about from its very beginning.


With all due deference to cnorman18, in regard to the Tanakh, let me say to you, Paul is speaking about the Temple sacrifices and Levitical duties, that would soon end, ie. 70CE. The word "covenant" is not in Heb. 8:7. I believe the "first" in that verse refers to the Temple priesthood of the Levites, that he mentions in verse 3. In verse 4, he speaks of the newly established priesthood that is established according to the order of Malki-Tzedek, ie an eternal priesthood.

Now, I am not sure whether there will be Levitical duties in the future. There is that whole anointing thing to deal with. That said, I do not believe that the Levitical sacrifices were ever redemptive, but commemorative. Thus, the new does not necessarily do away with the first, but provides greater meaning to it. Either way it went away in 70CE. So. HaTorah was not done away with, the Temple duties just passed away.

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