What's with all the Urantia stuff?

[harvey1]

Why do we need so many threads on this site to cover the Urantia book? It gives intellectual newcomers the impression that this site is weird. It sends the wrong message for those who might otherwise have some pretty interesting things to say. This is the first time I've heard of this book until I arrived at this site. Why not combine all the Urantia threads into one thread?

[Rob]

Hello Harvey and Otseng,

It is a revelation of truth ...

You know Woody, you can espouse your beliefs about the book as much as you like, but that does not and never will make your beliefs about the book true for others.

You behavior does far more to influence their beliefs about the book than your rantings about your beliefs, and yes, when you disregard the very rules and expectations of this site, and continually insist in espousing your beliefs without the least effort to understand the honest doubts of your fellows, you're engaging in little more than a rant of your beliefs without any sensitivity or respect for the beliefs and honest doubts of your fellows.

Is it any wonder they grow weary with your behavior and periodically loose some reproach upon you? You are like a bull in China shop, oblivious to the gems of intelligent and deep thinking minds present on this site, that you seem to want to trample all over in your zeal (not according to knowledge) to espouse your beliefs about the Urantia Book.

[Rob]

The red-headed heathen step-child would be more welcome than the UB'ers in any Christian congregation.

Spoken like a true Zelote Sandycane.

There lived near the home of Karuska, where the Master lodged, a Syrian woman who had heard much of Jesus as a great healer and teacher, and on this Sabbath afternoon she came over, bringing her little daughter. The child, about twelve years old, was afflicted with a grievous nervous disorder characterized by convulsions and other distressing manifestations. (1734.3)

Jesus had charged his associates to tell no one of his presence at the home of Karuska, explaining that he desired to have a rest. While they had obeyed their Master's instructions, the servant of Karuska had gone over to the house of this Syrian woman, Norana, to inform her that Jesus lodged at the home of her mistress and had urged this anxious mother to bring her afflicted daughter for healing. This mother, of course, believed that her child was possessed by a demon, an unclean spirit.

When Norana arrived with her daughter, the Alpheus twins explained through an interpreter that the Master was resting and could not be disturbed; whereupon Norana replied that she and the child would remain right there until the Master had finished his rest. Peter also endeavored to reason with her and to persuade her to go home. He explained that Jesus was weary with much teaching and healing, and that he had come to Phoenicia for a period of quiet and rest. But it was futile; Norana would not leave. To Peter's entreaties she replied only: "I will not depart until I have seen your Master. I know he can cast the demon out of my child, and I will not go until the healer has looked upon my daughter."

Then Thomas sought to send the woman away but met only with failure. To him she said: "I have faith that your Master can cast out this demon which torments my child. I have heard of his mighty works in Galilee, and I believe in him. What has happened to you, his disciples, that you would send away those who come seeking your Master's help?" And when she had thus spoken, Thomas withdrew.

Then came forward Simon Zelotes to remonstrate with Norana. Said Simon: "Woman, you are a Greek-speaking gentile. It is not right that you should expect the Master to take the bread intended for the children of the favored household and cast it to the dogs." But Norana refused to take offense at Simon's thrust. She replied only: "Yes, teacher, I understand your words. I am only a dog in the eyes of the Jews, but as concerns your Master, I am a believing dog. I am determined that he shall see my daughter, for I am persuaded that, if he shall but look upon her, he will heal her. And even you, my good man, would not dare to deprive the dogs of the privilege of obtaining the crumbs which chance to fall from the children's table."

At just this time the little girl was seized with a violent convulsion before them all, and the mother cried out: "There, you can see that my child is possessed by an evil spirit. If our need does not impress you, it would appeal to your Master, who I have been told loves all men and dares even to heal the gentiles when they believe. You are not worthy to be his disciples. I will not go until my child has been cured."

Jesus, who had heard all of this conversation through an open window, now came outside, much to their surprise, and said: "O woman, great is your faith, so great that I cannot withhold that which you desire; go your way in peace. Your daughter already has been made whole." And the little girl was well from that hour. As Norana and the child took leave, Jesus entreated them to tell no one of this occurrence; and while his associates did comply with this request, the mother and the child ceased not to proclaim the fact of the little girl's healing throughout all the countryside and even in Sidon, so much so that Jesus found it advisable to change his lodgings within a few days.

Jesus greatly enjoyed the keen sense of humor which these gentiles exhibited. It was the sense of humor displayed by Norana, the Syrian woman, as well as her great and persistent faith, that so touched the Master's heart and appealed to his mercy. Jesus greatly regretted that his people--the Jews--were so lacking in humor. He once said to Thomas: "My people take themselves too seriously; they are just about devoid of an appreciation of humor. The burdensome religion of the Pharisees could never have had origin among a people with a sense of humor. They also lack consistency; they strain at gnats and swallow camels." (1736.5)

The Faith of a Syrophoenician Woman

21: Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession."

23: Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us."

24: He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

25: The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said.

26: He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."

27: "Yes, Lord," she said, "but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table."

28: Then Jesus answered, "Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

The Faith of a Syrophoenician Woman

24: Jesus left that place and went to the vicinity of Tyre. He entered a house and did not want anyone to know it; yet he could not keep his presence secret.

25: In fact, as soon as she heard about him, a woman whose little daughter was possessed by an evil spirit came and fell at his feet.

26: The woman was a Greek, born in Syrian Phoenicia. She begged Jesus to drive the demon out of her daughter.

27: "First let the children eat all they want," he told her, "for it is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."

28: "Yes, Lord," she replied, "but even the dogs under the table eat the children's crumbs."

29: Then he told her, "For such a reply, you may go; the demon has left your daughter."

30: She went home and found her child lying on the bed, and the demon gone.

While perhaps indeed I am less welcome than a "red-headed heathen step-child" in your congregation (which says more about you then me), nevertheless, I am a believing "dog," or "red-headed heathen step-child," or whatever other ad hominem insult you wish to given expression from the depths of your heart and mind.

And I'm sure the UB'ers would agree.

Thankfully, Christianity contains a rather broad range of denominations, from the fundamentalist's who would sooner condone a "red-headed heathen step-child" than a Buddhist or reader of the Urantia Book, to those more liberal groups who even engage in inter-faith dialogue with Buddhists, Muslims, and others and view no man or women as a "red-headed heathen step-child." And the majority of those readers of the UB who desire to worship within Christianity, do so within the more liberal and enlightened congregations, of which there are many.

As the commercial sorta says, "What's in your heart mate?"

That evening a considerable company gathered about Jesus and the two apostles to ask questions, many of which the apostles answered, while others the Master discussed. In the course of the evening a certain lawyer, seeking to entangle Jesus in a compromising disputation, said: "Teacher, I would like to ask you just what I should do to inherit eternal life?" Jesus answered, "What is written in the law and the prophets; how do you read the Scriptures?" The lawyer, knowing the teachings of both Jesus and the Pharisees, answered: "To love the Lord God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and your neighbor as yourself." Then said Jesus: "You have answered right; this, if you really do, will lead to life everlasting."

But the lawyer was not wholly sincere in asking this question, and desiring to justify himself while also hoping to embarrass Jesus, he ventured to ask still another question. Drawing a little closer to the Master, he said, "But, Teacher, I should like you to tell me just who is my neighbor?" The lawyer asked this question hoping to entrap Jesus into making some statement that would contravene the Jewish law which defined one's neighbor as "the children of one's people." The Jews looked upon all others as "gentile dogs." This lawyer was somewhat familiar with Jesus' teachings and therefore well knew that the Master thought differently; thus he hoped to lead him into saying something which could be construed as an attack upon the sacred law.

But Jesus discerned the lawyer's motive, and instead of falling into the trap, he proceeded to tell his hearers a story, a story which would be fully appreciated by any Jericho audience. Said Jesus: "A certain man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and he fell into the hands of cruel brigands, who robbed him, stripped him and beat him, and departing, left him half dead. Very soon, by chance, a certain priest was going down that way, and when he came upon the wounded man, seeing his sorry plight, he passed by on the other side of the road. And in like manner a Levite also, when he came along and saw the man, passed by on the other side. Now, about this time, a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed down to Jericho, came across this wounded man; and when he saw how he had been robbed and beaten, he was moved with compassion, and going over to him, he bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine, and setting the man upon his own beast, brought him here to the inn and took care of him. And on the morrow he took out some money and, giving it to the host, said: `Take good care of my friend, and if the expense is more, when I come back again, I will repay you.' Now let me ask you: Which of these three turned out to be the neighbor of him who fell among the robbers?" And when the lawyer perceived that he had fallen into his own snare, he answered, "He who showed mercy on him." And Jesus said, "Go and do likewise."

The lawyer answered, "He who showed mercy," that he might refrain from even speaking that odious word, Samaritan. The lawyer was forced to give the very answer to the question, "Who is my neighbor?" which Jesus wished given, and which, if Jesus had so stated, would have directly involved him in the charge of heresy. Jesus not only confounded the dishonest lawyer, but he told his hearers a story which was at the same time a beautiful admonition to all his followers and a stunning rebuke to all Jews regarding their attitude toward the Samaritans. And this story has continued to promote brotherly love among all who have subsequently believed the gospel of Jesus.

Well, perhaps not all, at least not those who don't want "red-headed heathen step-children," "dogs," and "UB readers," Buddhists, Muslims, Atheists, Theists, Deists, Homosexuals, etc. in their neighborhood

Biblical Criticism, the academic and scholarly study of the texts of the Bible, there history context, the origin of the texts, has been around a long time. Many of modern scholars in the academic environment have long recognized the evolutionary nature of the Biblical text. The following is an excerpt from the “collective report of gospel scholars” called The Jesus Seminar, which calls into question such exclusivist views that would give vent to calling one's fellows "dogs" or "red-headed heathen step-children."

The children’s bread. Matthew has reproduced this story from Mark and has revised it slightly in the process. However, the dialogue attributed to Jesus was probably the storyteller’s creation.

Lost Sheep of Israel. Jesus’ response to the Greek woman (that he was “sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel”) is probably an invention of Matthew. The remark has no parallels elsewhere, although there is similar Matthean formulation in Matt. 10:6.

One branch of the early Christian movement aimed its evangelistic efforts at the Judean community in Palestine. This branch was led by Peter, then later by James, the brother of Jesus. Paul, on the other hand, understood his missionary work to be focused on pagans or gentiles; Paul thought of himself as an apostle (which means “the one sent”) to the gentiles. In the judgment of the Fellows of the Jesus Seminar, Paul is closer to Jesus on this point than were Peter and James.

As on this occasion, Jesus sometimes leaves Galilee and goes into foreign territory. He is believed to have had frequent contact with gentiles in the towns and cities around the Sea of Galilee. His freedom with respect to ritual and purity taboos, and his openness to non-conforming Judeans, suggests that he would not have advocated a mission restricted to Judeans in Galilee. Such statements as the one in v. 24 and the one in Matt. 10:6 were undoubtedly the creation of Matthew or his community.

-- The Five Gospels: The Search for the Authentic Words of Jesus. New Translation and Commentary by Robert W. Funk, Roy W. Hoover, and The Jesus Seminar. Polebridge Press Book, p. 204, 1996.

[Woody]

Hey Sandycane,

What was your question? Is the UB a division (some part of) Christianity?

No it is not. But I also have no idea what your point is? Does something have to be a division of Christianity to be discussed at this site?

The coming theology revealed in the UB is Jesusonianism. A theology of the religion OF Jesus, as opposed to Christianity, which is a religion ABOUT Jesus.

Thanks

[Sandycane]

edit

[Jose]

Y'know, it seems to me that we are treading very close to the line here. The above seem to be a series of discussions of the character of the people doing the posting, rather than of the actual topic. I would request that we leave off the commentary of one another and stick with the topic itself.

Harvey has a valid point that it would make sense to have one thread on the UB rather than many. It seems to me, from reading them, that they all say pretty much the same thing. None of them, however, get to the relevant issue: why is the UB any more believable than any other book of revealed wisdom? All I've seen is that its followers say so. But there's no news in the fact that the followers of one book call the followers of other books blind or ignorant. Nor is there any value to be gained by telling others to read the thing "and then they'll understand," or in providing quotes from the book to support arguments. Anyone can write anything in a book, so of what value is it to see that someone did so?

I don't single out the UB when I say this; I apply it to all of the holy books, just as the follower of one book applies it to the others. However, I do suggest to the followers of other books, that their response to believers in the UB is similar to the response of still other faiths to their own claims based on their own faiths. If you want people to see the validity of your faith, it's not a winning tactic to give them quotes and tell them that their problem is that they haven't read the book.

But, to get to the actual thread topic, Harvey, we try to foster debate "between members of all religions and all world views." So far, we have only a few represented; there are many faiths about which there is little discussion. But then, the site title does refer to Christianity, so maybe some of the non-Christians bypass the site for that reason.

So, if there are several UB threads, well, that may suggest that their initiators thought they addressed different topics. We have a great many threads on evolution and ID, so there's a precedent. We also have an over-representation of threads on "scientific racism," which, in my opinion [no, I'll just say that it might be better for the reader to form her own opinion after reading them].

So, I don't think the site will be labeled as weird because it has some discussions of diverse topics. It's very easy, after all, to read a bit of a thread and decide it's not one's cup of tea. We have a lot of threads; most readers should be able to find several in which they would like to participate. I also note that many threads peter out for lack of participation; that could happen to the UB threads if the non-believers wandered off to other discussions.

[Cathar1950]

Bro bob wrote:

Spoken like a true Zelote Sandycane.

How irrelevant can you get? I wonder why they spell it zelote in the Ub instead of zealot? Are they Italian?
I wonder why Bob you would back up something in the NT with a plagiarised UB version. What is your point?

Jesus Seminar wrote:

One branch of the early Christian movement aimed its evangelistic efforts at the Judean community in Palestine. This branch was led by Peter, then later by James, the brother of Jesus. Paul, on the other hand, understood his missionary work to be focused on pagans or gentiles; Paul thought of himself as an apostle (which means “the one sent”) to the gentiles. In the judgment of the Fellows of the Jesus Seminar, Paul is closer to Jesus on this point than were Peter and James.

I would question just about everything here.
There is no real evidence that Paul was closer to Jesus then James or Peter. Considering Paul got his information from visions and not from any human, and Peter and James were most likely followers before Paul. I would think that james and Peter were closer. If the NT seems to follow Paul in it's story line I would think it has more to do with the NT being Pauline in nature rather then Following the Jerusalem community lead by James. Clearly James is the first leader according to Paul while Peter being one of the pillars. The leadership of Peter was most likely an invention of the early gospel writers such as Luke trying to bridge the gap between Jesus/James/Peter/John and Paul's ideas. Peter may have been a leader in Alexandria where it is believed Matthew(or an unknown author or community) wrote his work.

[Rob]

The red-headed heathen step-child would be more welcome than the UB'ers in any Christian congregation.

What is your point?

I believe the Parable of the Good Samaritan is a timeless parable, with meaning for believer and non-believer alike. Like all parables, its meaning lies in the eye, or should I say mind, of the beholder.

Personally, I believe that all men and women upon this earth, are my brothers and sisters, and that there is no such thing as those whom we should consider to be the odious Samaritan or "red-headed heathen step-child," and that those who show mercy, tolerance, forgivness, and compassion, are my neighbor. And I am more than happy, even filled with joy, to not only invite them to sup with me at my table, but to join me in whatever congregation I happen to find myself within, whether it be a Muslim mosque or Buddhist temple, or a Christian church, or simply in the great outdoors. And yes, I can even learn to love my atheist brothers and sisters for just who they are and as they are, despite our very different beliefs, but surprisingly often similar values.

I don't think that one has to believe in the Bible, the Urantia Book, or even God or Jesus to see the high moral principle and noble ideals in this teaching. Living love, and that character of heart and soul that is truly expressive of the high ideals found in the parable of the Good Samaritan are not attained by mere intellectual assent to some body of beliefs, but rather by a living loyality of one's whole being to those ideas and ideals that even a predjudiced mind is compelled to acknowledge is expressed in the parable.

But nevertheless, the spirit of this parable evades many today, who refuse to see that its ideals take precedent over their beliefs.

What values do you hold supreme in your heart?

The Parable of the Good Samaritan

25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

26 "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"

27 He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"

28 "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."

29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"

30 In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. 35The next day he took out two silver coins[e] and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.'

36 "Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?"

37 The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him."
Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."

And I note as a simple matter of fact and truth that the parables, whether from the Bible or UB, are in spirit of meaning and ideal, exactly the same.

[Sandycane]

edit

[McCulloch]

First off, I apologise for my unguarded comments in the previous post in this thread. I was out of line. I am sorry if I have offended anyone. However, please remember that my personal opinion regarding the Urantia Books neither strengthens nor weakens any of the arguments that I may have made.

Secondly, this is not a debating thread but comments and suggestions. The debate over whether the Urantia Book readers are a branch of Christianity would be better discussed in the Other Religions forum.

[QED]

I am merely pointing out that one thread seems enough to discuss the beliefs of a very small segment of society. I've seen some good sites taken down by small groups who focus on their particular cult or weird beliefs, and while it might be good in their eyes to get such attention, it discourages those who see such "weirdness" as reflecting on the site in general. Is that what you want, QED?

Let's be realistic Harvey, all beliefs have the potential to become dominant irrespective of their merit. It wouldn't be the first time that "small segments of society" presented beliefs based on divine revelation Either we must reject all unsupported testimony (and throw out most of the Christian Bible) or take it on the chin that religions will for ever come and go with the tides of human fancy.