Obedience = Morality?

[Jolly_Penguin]

I have noticed a lot of Christians (and even more Muslims) equating morality to obedience to God.

Is there something in the Christian worldview that discourages Christians from having a sense of right and wrong independent of obedience to God? Can Christians here see right and wrong a separate concept from obeying authority?

Can you see how empathy can be a basis of morality? Or is that not relevant?

When I see a Christian ask "If you truly don't believe in God, why don't you go killing and raping?" I truly wonder about, and indeed fear the questioner. If they lost their faith in God would they really start doing these things? Do these individuals really have no moral compass of their own besides obedience to authority?

Finally, I don't claim that all Christians think this way. But a lot seem to and I want to know why.

[heavensgate]

[Replying to post 30 by jerryxplu]

If most Christians believe there is no morality without God it is probably in the same vein as that there is no thing that is without Gods design. Morality is an intrinsic part of the human race in general.
Where Christians differ is that morality is not solely an effort of human beings to establish social order, (though there is obviously a need to do so) or an evolutionary process. Cannibals may be quite moral to themselves (but not to those they are eating), what Christians believe is that absolutes are God given. A social morality will not bring us to the point of absolute morality.
One could argue as did Plato that Justice (morality) is the interest of the powerful. Why? Because they make the rules. Clearly, absolutes should be the interest of even the poorest of people, whether slave of free. This we see in a political reality in our own histories, especially in totalitarian governments, that social moralities apply to the state and is devastatingly cruel.

[The Ghetto Smoker Lady]

[Replying to post 1 by Jolly_Penguin]

That last part of your question really got to me. Because some christians think that christianity is the only source of morals, they think that other people can't do good, even though they don't see people raping, stealing, and killing each other. Also referring to what you mentioned in your post, why do they think they would be criminals without god? Is it the delusion that you can only be good with god or is it that some christians would truly be criminals without something to follow. If it is true that some people would be bad without a god is concerning to me, as we should be good people no matter what and should be mature about others' beliefs and opinions.

[Mesopatamia]

"If you truly don't believe in God, why don't you go killing and raping?" I truly wonder about, and indeed fear the questioner. If they lost their faith in God would they really start doing these things?

I wonder if they meant something different by this question and just didn't articulate it well or clearly. The reason I say this is because back when I was agnostic long before becoming a believer, the one thing that was the very first thing that led me to wanting to know if there was a god or not, was the fact that I had a conscience.

I always had a very strong desire to do "the right thing" and always felt i was answering to something. I never could just go along with the crowd when anyone was picked on, for example, even if it would earn me popularity to do so. I didn't learn this from my parents nor from anyone I knew. It was just my moral compass.

The reason I say all of this is because, in my logic, if there was no god, why did it matter? I mean really, what purpose is there for right and wrong? Why do i care about what is right, especially if when I die, i am just going to cease to exist at that point? If there is nobody to answer to, nobody to even establish right from wrong, then how can right and wrong even exist? By whose standards?

The thing was, though, no matter what, I wasn't able to "not defend" the underdog, etc.... I had a conscience that wouldn't let me and I just couldn't figure out where this conscience came from. That is why I went seeking to find G-d.

When you gave that example of that person asking you that question, I was wondering if they worded it in a way that sounded like they were calling you "immoral" but maybe they meant from the point of view I just explained. In other words, they may have been just trying to get you to question where your sense of morality came from, assuming you had one, rather than it sounding like they were saying that you must NOT have any morals, since you don't believe in G-d.

Just a thought.

[Jolly_Penguin]

I have heard that argument a few times now. The claim seems to be that you can have objective morality with God but not without God. I don't follow that logic. I don't see how introducing God makes it any less subjective, and I see it as turning it more into obedience than actual moral decision making.

I also don't see why we can't derive morality from empathy and natural senses of fairness. That isn't unique to humans. We see it in a lot of social species, ranging from dogs to dolphins to monkeys. It seems to me that it would help societies thrive so there could be a strong natural selective pressure for it to evolve.

[GTO50]

I have noticed a lot of Christians (and even more Muslims) equating morality to obedience to God.

Is there something in the Christian worldview that discourages Christians from having a sense of right and wrong independent of obedience to God? Can Christians here see right and wrong a separate concept from obeying authority?

Can you see how empathy can be a basis of morality? Or is that not relevant?

When I see a Christian ask "If you truly don't believe in God, why don't you go killing and raping?" I truly wonder about, and indeed fear the questioner. If they lost their faith in God would they really start doing these things? Do these individuals really have no moral compass of their own besides obedience to authority?

Finally, I don't claim that all Christians think this way. But a lot seem to and I want to know why.

Anyone can be a Christian. All you have to do is say "I am a Christian."

[Jolly_Penguin]

Couldn't that make you one in name only? I know a guy named Christian. He's a Christian, technically I suppose, because that is his name and he says he is a Christian. It just means something entirely different.

[JehovahsWitness]

Is there something in the Christian worldview that discourages Christians from having a sense of right and wrong independent of obedience to God? Can Christians here see right and wrong a separate concept from obeying authority?

I certainly cannot speak for all Christians only myself as one of Jehovah's Witnesses, but yes, for us morality refers to what is fundamentally right or wrong and I believe that only God in the absolute sense can decide what is right or wrong.

Thus any decision as to morals independent of our Creator risks being skewed or inaccurate.

[Closingaccountreadgmailna]

I have noticed a lot of Christians (and even more Muslims) equating morality to obedience to God.

Is there something in the Christian worldview that discourages Christians from having a sense of right and wrong independent of obedience to God? Can Christians here see right and wrong a separate concept from obeying authority?

Can you see how empathy can be a basis of morality? Or is that not relevant?

When I see a Christian ask "If you truly don't believe in God, why don't you go killing and raping?" I truly wonder about, and indeed fear the questioner. If they lost their faith in God would they really start doing these things? Do these individuals really have no moral compass of their own besides obedience to authority?

Finally, I don't claim that all Christians think this way. But a lot seem to and I want to know why.

We have to know our faith, we have to study The Holy Book, we must pray and ask God for help. One cannot simply hear and speak, especially someone that wants to follow Christ. Many people are there to distract from true faith and the Word. One has to be very careful.

What you heared will probably (I hope) never come out of my mouth to someone. I'm not sure what you two were arguing, but it seems to me, you upset him, very much.

One also cannot simply force someone to believe. So one cannot expect others to follow Christ with fear of hell for them. Hell is real, but God is love and that is the focus, the positives of the faith.

We were saved by Jesus, He died for us all on the cross. All of us are sinners. How is one to attack others with assumption, all men that don't believe or are questioning faith are evil.

Goes to show, how poor of a sinners we all are, even faithful ones.

God bless you!

[Closingaccountreadgmailna]

I have noticed a lot of Christians (and even more Muslims) equating morality to obedience to God.

Is there something in the Christian worldview that discourages Christians from having a sense of right and wrong independent of obedience to God? Can Christians here see right and wrong a separate concept from obeying authority?

Can you see how empathy can be a basis of morality? Or is that not relevant?

When I see a Christian ask "If you truly don't believe in God, why don't you go killing and raping?" I truly wonder about, and indeed fear the questioner. If they lost their faith in God would they really start doing these things? Do these individuals really have no moral compass of their own besides obedience to authority?

Finally, I don't claim that all Christians think this way. But a lot seem to and I want to know why.

We have to know our faith, we have to study The Holy Book, we must pray and ask God for help. One cannot simply hear and speak, especially someone that wants to follow Christ. Many people are there to distract from true faith and the Word. One has to be very careful.

What you heared will probably (I hope) never come out of my mouth to someone. I'm not sure what you two were arguing, but it seems to me, you upset him, very much.

One also cannot simply force someone to believe. So one cannot expect others to follow Christ with fear of hell for them. Hell is real, but God is love and that is the focus, the positives of the faith.

We were saved by Jesus, He died for us all on the cross. All of us are sinners.

How is one to attack others with assumption, all men that don't believe or are questioning faith are evil, just wrong to do this.

We are born to love, by God and for God, to be good as He is. Yes, we have large capacity of evil, but also of good. To be like Jesus, to be perfect, that's why we're here and He gave us the example and Truth.

Goes to show, how poor of a sinners we all are, even the faithful ones.

I hope one black spot don't destroy what Jesus did for you.

And yes obedience to God (10 Commandments and in New Testament Jesus complete the Commandments) is a must-follow for believers and non-believers. It does good for you.

I once heared a priest (Father Mitch Pacwa) say (and I won't quote it perfect):

"Imagine all men would contemplate fifth Commandment, Thou shalt not kill, would there be murders? Would there be suicide? Would there be unjust-anger?"

Click here. A good watch! I recommend it for everyone!

We are weak, we need grace. God help us all!

God bless you!