Troubles with the book of mormon! part 1. NEPHI!

[DanieltheDragon]

I made a claim that I found the book of mormon troubling. Now while I acknowledge this is purely subjective, I find it important and relevant in the discourse of religion to discuss these issues. So I will start with the beginning 1 Nephi.

In Nephi we find that his father his mother and 3 brothers must flee Israel because his father had a vision of its destruction because of the stiffneckedness of the Israeli people and their wickedness in ignoring god's laws. (which is interesting why we can suddenly ignore them now?)

Nephi was the only son of Lehi to take him seriously as the other sons murmured to their father frequently. Apparently on this expedition Nephi and his brothers Laman and Lamuel must go back and acquire brass plates(which are important cause they have the family tree on them and some of god's laws) from Labam. Labam tells them to leave his house and calls them thieves and threatens their lives. Nephi recommends they aquire the property they left behind and use that to acquire the plates. Labam steals the property and kicks them out of Jerusalem. Now Nephi is going to try one last time and this is where I find things to really get troubling.

Nephi 4:

7 Nevertheless I went forth, and as I came near unto the house of Laban I beheld a man, and he had fallen to the earth before me, for he was drunken with wine.

8 And when I came to him I found that it was Laban.

9 And I beheld his sword, and I drew it forth from the sheath

10 And it came to pass that I was constrained by the Spirit that I should kill Laban; but I said in my heart: Never at any time have I shed the blood of man. And I shrunk and would that I might not slay him.

11 And the Spirit said unto me again: Behold the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands. Yea, and I also knew that he had sought to take away mine own life; yea, and he would not hearken unto the commandments of the Lord; and he also had taken away our property.

12 And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me again: Slay him, for the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands;

17 And again, I knew that the Lord had delivered Laban into my hands for this cause—that I might obtain the records according to his commandments.

18 Therefore I did obey the voice of the Spirit, and took Laban by the hair of the head, and I smote off his head with his own sword.

19 And after I had smitten off his head with his own sword, I took the garments of Laban and put them upon mine own body; yea, even every whit; and I did gird on his armor about my loins.

This I find troubling for several reasons

1. Nephi did not want to kill Labam yet the Spirit of the lord continued to press him to do it.

2. This is murder to attain property that is not yours.

Additionally I have heard of this kind of dialogue before.

http://www.schizophrenic.com/content/sc ... ing-voices

Command hallucinations
Another fairly common experience with regards to the voices is that they tell the schizophrenic to do certain things. Clinically, these are referred to as “command hallucinations�, and in some cases they can cause significant problems. The voices may tell the schizophrenic to harm or kill himself/herself or to harm someone else. Because the voices seem very real, they can be very compelling, making it difficult for the schizophrenic to resist acting on the commands

It is troubling to me because the story of Nephi has some characteristics of Schizophrenia and it is celebrated as a good thing

Now Nephi being a righteous man unto the lord caught a servant fleeing

30 And it came to pass that when the servant of Laban beheld my brethren he began to tremble, and was about to flee from before me and return to the city of Jerusalem.

31 And now I, Nephi, being a man large in stature, and also having received much strength of the Lord, therefore I did seize upon the servant of Laban, and held him, that he should not flee.

32 And it came to pass that I spake with him, that if he would hearken unto my words, as the Lord liveth, and as I live, even so that if he would hearken unto our words, we would spare his life.

38 And it came to pass that we took the plates of brass and the servant of Laban, and departed into the wilderness, and journeyed unto the tent of our father.

and see how merciful Nephi is he spared him his life if he agreed to be kidnapped.


This is just the beginning and there are more troubling stories to come. This one stands out on many levels.

Question for debate:


Is the story of Nephi and Labam a troubling story?

[dianaiad]

I made a claim that I found the book of mormon troubling. Now while I acknowledge this is purely subjective, I find it important and relevant in the discourse of religion to discuss these issues. So I will start with the beginning 1 Nephi.

In Nephi we find that his father his mother and 3 brothers must flee Israel because his father had a vision of its destruction because of the stiffneckedness of the Israeli people and their wickedness in ignoring god's laws. (which is interesting why we can suddenly ignore them now?)

Nephi was the only son of Lehi to take him seriously as the other sons murmured to their father frequently. Apparently on this expedition Nephi and his brothers Laman and Lamuel must go back and acquire brass plates(which are important cause they have the family tree on them and some of god's laws) from Labam. Labam tells them to leave his house and calls them thieves and threatens their lives. Nephi recommends they aquire the property they left behind and use that to acquire the plates. Labam steals the property and kicks them out of Jerusalem. Now Nephi is going to try one last time and this is where I find things to really get troubling.

Nephi 4:

7 Nevertheless I went forth, and as I came near unto the house of Laban I beheld a man, and he had fallen to the earth before me, for he was drunken with wine.

8 And when I came to him I found that it was Laban.

9 And I beheld his sword, and I drew it forth from the sheath

10 And it came to pass that I was constrained by the Spirit that I should kill Laban; but I said in my heart: Never at any time have I shed the blood of man. And I shrunk and would that I might not slay him.

11 And the Spirit said unto me again: Behold the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands. Yea, and I also knew that he had sought to take away mine own life; yea, and he would not hearken unto the commandments of the Lord; and he also had taken away our property.

12 And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me again: Slay him, for the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands;

17 And again, I knew that the Lord had delivered Laban into my hands for this cause—that I might obtain the records according to his commandments.

18 Therefore I did obey the voice of the Spirit, and took Laban by the hair of the head, and I smote off his head with his own sword.

19 And after I had smitten off his head with his own sword, I took the garments of Laban and put them upon mine own body; yea, even every whit; and I did gird on his armor about my loins.

This I find troubling for several reasons

1. Nephi did not want to kill Labam yet the Spirit of the lord continued to press him to do it.

2. This is murder to attain property that is not yours.

Additionally I have heard of this kind of dialogue before.

http://www.schizophrenic.com/content/sc ... ing-voices

Command hallucinations
Another fairly common experience with regards to the voices is that they tell the schizophrenic to do certain things. Clinically, these are referred to as “command hallucinations�, and in some cases they can cause significant problems. The voices may tell the schizophrenic to harm or kill himself/herself or to harm someone else. Because the voices seem very real, they can be very compelling, making it difficult for the schizophrenic to resist acting on the commands

It is troubling to me because the story of Nephi has some characteristics of Schizophrenia and it is celebrated as a good thing

Now Nephi being a righteous man unto the lord caught a servant fleeing

30 And it came to pass that when the servant of Laban beheld my brethren he began to tremble, and was about to flee from before me and return to the city of Jerusalem.

31 And now I, Nephi, being a man large in stature, and also having received much strength of the Lord, therefore I did seize upon the servant of Laban, and held him, that he should not flee.

32 And it came to pass that I spake with him, that if he would hearken unto my words, as the Lord liveth, and as I live, even so that if he would hearken unto our words, we would spare his life.

38 And it came to pass that we took the plates of brass and the servant of Laban, and departed into the wilderness, and journeyed unto the tent of our father.

and see how merciful Nephi is he spared him his life if he agreed to be kidnapped.


This is just the beginning and there are more troubling stories to come. This one stands out on many levels.

Question for debate:


Is the story of Nephi and Labam a troubling story?

I have moved this to '"Questions about a belief,' since it directly relates to a specific belief, and not Christianity in general.

That done, I have a couple of comments.

First, yes, the story is as you relate it.
However, it was not 'murder to obtain property that was not theirs."

That property most certainly WAS theirs, twice over. First, because the plates were the property of Lehi in the first place, and second, because even though it was already the property of Lehi, he offered a whole bunch of money (pretty much all he had, as it happens) to Laban for them...Laban took everything and threw the boys out.

So Lehi had paid for his own property, and Laban stole it. Twice.

So it's not like Nephi hadn't tried everything he could, in all honor, to get it back.

The question is...it was vital that those plates; Lehi's family history, be back in the hands of the family.

Do you have an alternative method of getting them back, that would not cost lives?

G'head. Give me an idea or two. Or just one.

Was Nephi troubled by this?

Of course.

did he have choice?

Oh, arm chair general, I'd like to hear one.

[DanieltheDragon]

We are assuming god exists right? Did Nephi need to have those specific plates and not a copy? I mean if they were really that vital for god's purposes could god not have just manifested them to Nephi? I mean you have a god that can create a whole universe but cannot create a family tree with some laws on them? In fact this supreme being who robbed pharoah of free will could not do the same to Laban?

Furthermore we only get one side of the story that is Nephi. Have you ever heard stories from death row inmates? They have a funny and sometimes convincing way of spinning stories to make it seem like they had no other option.

What of the servant? Nephi basically forced him at sword point to go with them. Could they have not just fled?

Lastly God if we are assuming this was not a schizophrenic delusion manipulated the situation in such a way that murder was the only option.

[DanieltheDragon]

3 For behold, Laban hath the record of the Jews and also a genealogy of my forefathers, and they are engraven upon plates of brass.

That leads ne to believe it was always Laban's or am I missing something?

[dianaiad]

We are assuming god exists right? Did Nephi need to have those specific plates and not a copy? I mean if they were really that vital for god's purposes could god not have just manifested them to Nephi? I mean you have a god that can create a whole universe but cannot create a family tree with some laws on them? In fact this supreme being who robbed pharoah of free will could not do the same to Laban?

So.....your problem is that God didn't do it the way you would have had you been God?

Furthermore we only get one side of the story that is Nephi. Have you ever heard stories from death row inmates? They have a funny and sometimes convincing way of spinning stories to make it seem like they had no other option.

What of the servant? Nephi basically forced him at sword point to go with them. Could they have not just fled?

Lastly God if we are assuming this was not a schizophrenic delusion manipulated the situation in such a way that murder was the only option.

You have a choice here.

Take the story as it is written (which, if it were fiction, you would) or decide that since you, if you were God, would have simply handed everything to Lehi and his family on a plate and teleported them to the Americas...or better still, have changed everybody's actions so that there would have been no need of their leaving in the first place.

If it is the first, then deal with the question as asked.

If it is the second, well....I have no answer for you. You go ahead and decide that you don't believe in God because if you were God you would have done everything differently. If that's so, there's nothing to talk about here.

As for me, I figure that God, having given men free will, actually interferes as little as possible in stuff like this. Laban had lots of chances to be honest and hand over the plates, to which he was not entitled.

(and it may have been just as important that he NOT have them as it was that Lehi did have them; who knows? Those records were very important. Important enough for Lehi to give up pretty much everything he had to buy them back, and important enough for Laban to steal them, and defraud Lehi and his sons, thinking that they couldn't do anything about it.)

You figure out which approach you are going to take, and let me know.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 5 by dianaiad]

So.....your problem is that God didn't do it the way you would have had you been God?

You asked a question if there was any other way I gave an answer. It is you who has asked me to assume the role of god.

That being said that is not the problem here. The problem I have is as the story is written, it seems to praise a schizophrenic serial killer and even worse if god is real it depicts a sociopath of a god who would rather a drunk man be beheaded in the street instead of having the protagonist sit down and have a civil discussion and copy the information of the bronze plates instead of taking them.

Its not that god didn't do it my way it is the fact that of all the options in the world that could have transpired this all powerful all knowing god chose to make his champion in this instance behead a drunk man in a street.

Now I know sitting down and having a civil discussion isn't really that interesting of a story but if you were god what would you choose?

Those records were very important. Important enough for Lehi to give up pretty much everything he had to buy them back, and important enough for Laban to steal them, and defraud Lehi and his sons, thinking that they couldn't do anything about it

Lets get something straight those records were not important enough for Lehi to give up everything he had. He already did give everything up to leave Jerusalem. Remember Laman and Lemuel murmering about leaving it behind as the moved away? They gave it up then, they abandoned it.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 5 by dianaiad]

Let me be succint why I think this is an issue.

It teaches people this:

If someone has something that is yours or something you want it is ok to kill them to get it if they refuse to give it to you.


That is a problem in my opinion.

[dianaiad]

[Replying to post 5 by dianaiad]

Let me be succint why I think this is an issue.

It teaches people this:

If someone has something that is yours or something you want it is ok to kill them to get it if they refuse to give it to you.


That is a problem in my opinion.

Why?

It's not as if they didn't try very hard to get those plates without killing. It's not as though they weren't cheated...TWICE.
It's not as though Laban hadn't tried to kill THEM.

..............and it's certainly not as if Nephi was prone to such methods. The very argument he was having with himself...and with God...and you can't HAVE this both ways. If God is, and the Book of Mormon is true, then so is the story. Having an actual conversation with the Holy Spirit is not schizophrenia any more than having a conversation with the guy whose voice is in your bluetooth ear piece is.

If God is not, or the Book of Mormon is not true, then it's a work of fiction. In that case Nephi is still not schizophrenic, because, well....it's a story and the story rather depends upon the character, "God" being around.

The only way you can determine that Nephi was schizophrenic is if the Book of Mormon is a factual account, but that there is no deity and so everything in it is an attempt to justify real events with an imaginary deity.

I doubt that this is a conclusion that you want to come to.

I can see no approach that leaves it possible for Nephi to have been a 'schizophrenic serial killer." I have addressed the matter of schizophrenia, and in order to be a 'serial killer,' one must actually kill more than once, and on different occasions.

You are using inaccurate, insulting and inflammatory language specifically to denigrate my beliefs, and to cause ill feelings.

It's not a debate tactic I appreciate.

By the way, you seem to have missed the part about Laban, after taking all the gold and silver, setting his servants onto Nephi and his brothers in order to kill them. So Nephi had not only been robbed...twice...of property that belonged to him and his family, Laban had just tried to kill him.

Major theft. Twice. Attempted murder.

Laban got off easy. Were I you, I wouldn't be arguing the morality of the beheading. I'd be wondering how Nephi got the man's clothes off so that he could wear them and fool his servants. There would have been a LOT of blood.

I've always wondered a bit about how he managed that.

But as to being upset about Nephi killing Laban, after everything Laban did, and how badly the family needed those records?

Not so much, no.

[DanieltheDragon]

I am not trying to be inflammatory that is just how the story reads to me like schizophrenia. If you actually took the time to understand what schizophrenia is instead of associating the stigmatizm to it the problem is not schizophrenia itself but the approach the story takes with it. That of course assumes god is not real and this is an account of someone whom is suffering

I am not trying to have it both ways I am presenting a series of issues with the story considering multiple possibilities. That is why I presented the case for both.

It doesn't matter if Laban tried to kill his whole family. It does not change what Nephi did he beheaded an unarmed impaired individual. Also i think i am really missing the verse where it states the bronze plates were Lehi's. From the story I read, it felt like Nephi was trying to take something that Laban did not want to give..

Also your right just killer or murderer would he more accurate my bad about serial.

[DanieltheDragon]

Here let me elaborate

Deanna Laney, was by all accounts a good woman she was even a member of her church choir.

However, god apparently was talking to her and no one knew this.

Laney began to see "signs." Her 14-month-old son, Aaron, was playing with a spear. That was the first signal from God that she was to do something to her children.

When Aaron presented Laney with a rock that day, she later reported that she believed she was supposed to pay attention. This was a symbol. Later that same day, he squeezed a frog. Then she understood. She was to kill her children, either by stoning them, strangling them or stabbing them. God had shown her three ways

Again she told God no, but again she felt pressured to comply. "Each time it was getting worse and worse," she later said, "the way it had to be done." In other words, the more she resisted, the worse the death would be for her children. She decided that rocks would be preferable to strangulation, so she found some in preparation.

Eventually she did murder her children one by one and with her last child explained what she was doing and why she had to do it. She started up stairs smashing her son's skull with a rock. This didn't kill him right away and she had to smother him with a pillow trusting that god would do the rest. The next attempt was much more effective this time with a rock the size of a dinner plate. The last child survived but had severe brain damage.

I highlight this because of the similarity. God told each of them to kill and in both cases the resisted and in both cases the pressure increased. That is the tragedy of a psychotic delusion. She believed she was doing the right thing. The courts did do the right thing though they didn't convict her they got her the help she needed she spent 8 years in a mental care facility and was released. The court also recognized that while she was not a danger to her self she was a danger to others and she has to submit to regular drug tests for the remainder of her life to insure she is taking her medications.

With Nephi its different. Here its justified its a good thing, he really needed those plates. That is the problem and why I find the story troubling. It takes a serious issue and trivializes it as if nothing was wrong. God said it was ok, god delivered him, god wanted those plates!