Troubles with the book of mormon! part 1. NEPHI!

[DanieltheDragon]

I made a claim that I found the book of mormon troubling. Now while I acknowledge this is purely subjective, I find it important and relevant in the discourse of religion to discuss these issues. So I will start with the beginning 1 Nephi.

In Nephi we find that his father his mother and 3 brothers must flee Israel because his father had a vision of its destruction because of the stiffneckedness of the Israeli people and their wickedness in ignoring god's laws. (which is interesting why we can suddenly ignore them now?)

Nephi was the only son of Lehi to take him seriously as the other sons murmured to their father frequently. Apparently on this expedition Nephi and his brothers Laman and Lamuel must go back and acquire brass plates(which are important cause they have the family tree on them and some of god's laws) from Labam. Labam tells them to leave his house and calls them thieves and threatens their lives. Nephi recommends they aquire the property they left behind and use that to acquire the plates. Labam steals the property and kicks them out of Jerusalem. Now Nephi is going to try one last time and this is where I find things to really get troubling.

Nephi 4:

7 Nevertheless I went forth, and as I came near unto the house of Laban I beheld a man, and he had fallen to the earth before me, for he was drunken with wine.

8 And when I came to him I found that it was Laban.

9 And I beheld his sword, and I drew it forth from the sheath

10 And it came to pass that I was constrained by the Spirit that I should kill Laban; but I said in my heart: Never at any time have I shed the blood of man. And I shrunk and would that I might not slay him.

11 And the Spirit said unto me again: Behold the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands. Yea, and I also knew that he had sought to take away mine own life; yea, and he would not hearken unto the commandments of the Lord; and he also had taken away our property.

12 And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me again: Slay him, for the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands;

17 And again, I knew that the Lord had delivered Laban into my hands for this cause—that I might obtain the records according to his commandments.

18 Therefore I did obey the voice of the Spirit, and took Laban by the hair of the head, and I smote off his head with his own sword.

19 And after I had smitten off his head with his own sword, I took the garments of Laban and put them upon mine own body; yea, even every whit; and I did gird on his armor about my loins.

This I find troubling for several reasons

1. Nephi did not want to kill Labam yet the Spirit of the lord continued to press him to do it.

2. This is murder to attain property that is not yours.

Additionally I have heard of this kind of dialogue before.

http://www.schizophrenic.com/content/sc ... ing-voices

Command hallucinations
Another fairly common experience with regards to the voices is that they tell the schizophrenic to do certain things. Clinically, these are referred to as “command hallucinations�, and in some cases they can cause significant problems. The voices may tell the schizophrenic to harm or kill himself/herself or to harm someone else. Because the voices seem very real, they can be very compelling, making it difficult for the schizophrenic to resist acting on the commands

It is troubling to me because the story of Nephi has some characteristics of Schizophrenia and it is celebrated as a good thing

Now Nephi being a righteous man unto the lord caught a servant fleeing

30 And it came to pass that when the servant of Laban beheld my brethren he began to tremble, and was about to flee from before me and return to the city of Jerusalem.

31 And now I, Nephi, being a man large in stature, and also having received much strength of the Lord, therefore I did seize upon the servant of Laban, and held him, that he should not flee.

32 And it came to pass that I spake with him, that if he would hearken unto my words, as the Lord liveth, and as I live, even so that if he would hearken unto our words, we would spare his life.

38 And it came to pass that we took the plates of brass and the servant of Laban, and departed into the wilderness, and journeyed unto the tent of our father.

and see how merciful Nephi is he spared him his life if he agreed to be kidnapped.


This is just the beginning and there are more troubling stories to come. This one stands out on many levels.

Question for debate:


Is the story of Nephi and Labam a troubling story?

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 10 by DanieltheDragon]

Also about the whole free-will thing?

He will rob a ruler of a nation of free will just so he can send his chosen people( whom he had enslaved in the first place ) to roam about a desert for 40 years.

But he wont take away the free-will of some guy who is holding some brass plates? I mean seriously why all the killing. Why do all abrahamic type religious texts always go straight to the killing? I will give the book of mormon credit though it was a lot slower to killing than the old testament and there are far fewer deaths in it.


Oh not to mention in chapter 7 god robs free will again

5 And it came to pass that the Lord did soften the heart of Ishmael, and also his household, insomuch that they took their journey with us down into the wilderness to the tent of our father

Why couldn't the lord soften the heart of Laban if these plates were so important?

[Wordleymaster1]

[Replying to post 1 by DanieltheDragon]

Maybe this is a problem, but the bigger problem to me is that what the BoM (not the hiliarious play but the book itself) teaches is so abnormal that it borders on silliness. I know people will believe in ANYTHING that tickles their fancy, but to me, the BoM is ultimately flawed - only surpassed by Scientology and its teachings.
That, to me, is the real problem here. Picking-n-choosing what about the BoM is troubling is like asking which poisonous snake in the snake pit is worse - aren't they all bad enough?

[dianaiad]

I am not trying to be inflammatory that is just how the story reads to me like schizophrenia. If you actually took the time to understand what schizophrenia is instead of associating the stigmatizm to it the problem is not schizophrenia itself but the approach the story takes with it. That of course assumes god is not real and this is an account of someone whom is suffering

I am not trying to have it both ways I am presenting a series of issues with the story considering multiple possibilities. That is why I presented the case for both.

It doesn't matter if Laban tried to kill his whole family. It does not change what Nephi did he beheaded an unarmed impaired individual. Also i think i am really missing the verse where it states the bronze plates were Lehi's. From the story I read, it felt like Nephi was trying to take something that Laban did not want to give..

Also your right just killer or murderer would he more accurate my bad about serial.

...

So you are taking the Book of Mormon as a true account of events that actually happened, and are now questioning whether God had a hand in it, or whether it is a story of a schizophrenic individual who was listening to voices in his head?

................and you don't appreciate the problem with that approach?

Because if the Book of Mormon is true, then it really IS the story of a bunch of folks who came over to the Americas on a boat, really was inscribed on those plates with Joseph Smith translated, and so forth.

Which of course causes some problems with your interpretation of events.


As to Laban, he held the plates containing Lehi's genealogy. that's what they WERE, and Lehi was the head of the family. What was on the plates identify the proper owner of them.

As for me, and for pretty much anybody else not a Quaker, if a man has something that important, that vital to me and my family, that BELONGS to me and my family, he's keeping it, not because it is important to him, but simply because of greed; if that man not only refuses to sell them to me (even though the thing belongs to me in the first place), keeps all my worldly goods anyway AND sets fifty or sixty men on my party of three in order to kill me....

Y'know, if this were a tale set in modern times, where the hero is the guy who has tried all non-violent methods to get justice, and had been treated as Laban treated Nephi up to and including setting a mob on him, and finally, in a last, courageous attempt to fix things, infiltrated a heavily armed and occupied camp, coming upon a lazy or drunken sentry, a knife to the throat would not have been seen as a problem. If that lazy and drunken sentry happened to be the commander of the camp...great. The hero does what the hero does. Hooyah.

Nobody would say a word about it as a plot device. YOUR problem is that Nephi actually had a crisis of conscious about it. Heroes aren't supposed to do that.

There would be no speculation about schizophrenia or anything else; the whole thing would have been seen as, well....Laban should have either given those plates for the money, or given the money back. A late night Seal Team 6 (minus five) was very much called for.

Your problem, I think, is that Nephi is portrayed as a real person faced with a real dilemma and making a choice that you, not being in that place and time, can look down your nose at.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to dianaiad]

I am sorry my mind doesn't work in binary there are a plethora of possiblilities to deal with some interconnected some not, further complicating things. Perhaps I am not communicating that clearly if it would help you to discuss one set at a time then move on to the next set that might be easier.

For a fictional movie this story might work but in real life its a bit different isn't it. Nephi would have been arrested for trespassing and murder. Laban would have been arrested for theft by deadly force.

As to the plates Lehi was one of many genealogies the pates were not his and the book of mormon does not actually say they were and I can find no verse that says this. I read it and it seems like Laban owned them.

[dianaiad]

[Replying to dianaiad]

I am sorry my mind doesn't work in binary there are a plethora of possiblilities to deal with some interconnected some not, further complicating things. Perhaps I am not communicating that clearly if it would help you to discuss one set at a time then move on to the next set that might be easier.

For a fictional movie this story might work but in real life its a bit different isn't it. Nephi would have been arrested for trespassing and murder. Laban would have been arrested for theft by deadly force.

..........er.......by whom?

If this were 'real life,' (that is, modern day USA in a fairly civil suburban neighborhood) Lehi and Nephi could have gone to the courts and sued for the plates. If that didn't work, they could have offered to pay for them. If Laban had stolen the money and sent his gang after the three brothers, they could have called the cops.

..............and Nephi wouldn't have had to stage his late night raid. The killing would not have happened; one can assume that because of all the lengths Nephi went to before he ended up sneaking into the camp.

Your ....and there is a word for what you are doing here..."presentism," that is, applying present day ideas, philosophies and standards to ancient, and different, cultures.


Doing that is considered a rather grave 'no no' in historical studies. It's also not exactly logical.

I mean, after all, would you blame all the folks who died of the plague in the middle ages for not going to the doctor and getting penicillin shots?

Because that is the equivalent of what you are doing here.

As to the plates Lehi was one of many genealogies the pates were not his and the book of mormon does not actually say they were and I can find no verse that says this. I read it and it seems like Laban owned them.

Where does it say that Lehi's genealogy was 'one of many' on those plates?

those brass plates contained the record of the Jews and 'a genealogy of" Lehi.

When they were referred to again, Nephi asked for the plates that contained Lehi's genealogy.

He asked once, as if he had a perfect right to request them without paying for them. If he and his family didn't own them, given the genealogy of Lehi on the plates and all, why did Nephi think he had a right to simply ask for them? Laban called him a thief (ironic, that) and threw him out. Nephi came back with all the gold, silver and precious things belonging to Lehi's family and offered all that for the plates. Laban threw him out again, only this time he sent fifty or sixty men after him in order to kill him.

Oh, yeah, and he kept all the goodies.

It was only after all THAT that Nephi sneaked into the camp, found Laban, killed him, disguised himself as Laban, and took the plates. Please note: he didn't take back all the gold, etc.....just the plates.


Oh, yeah, and the slave Zoram, to whom Nephi offered freedom if Zoram would come with the brothers.

I find that....rather restrained of Nephi, actually, considering the circumstances.

But please, do go on to the 'next set.'

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 15 by dianaiad]

12 And also a record of the Jews from the beginning, even down to the commencement of the reign of Zedekiah, king of Judah;

13 And also the prophecies of the holy prophets, from the beginning, even down to the commencement of the reign of Zedekiah; and also many prophecies which have been spoken by the mouth of Jeremiah.

14 And it came to pass that my father, Lehi, also found upon the plates of brass a genealogy of his fathers; wherefore he knew that he was a descendant of Joseph

It was a record of the Jews from the beginning down to the reign of Zedekiah, to me this reads as a genealogy of all the Jews among which Lehi also found his fathers on it.

Again if it was his plates he would have known what was on them no need to search through them.

16 And thus my father, Lehi, did discover the genealogy of his fathers. And Laban also was a descendant of Joseph, wherefore he and his fathers had kept the records.

This also suggests that Lehi didn't know what was on the plates and did not know he was a descendant of Joseph. I don't see anywhere written that the plates were theirs to begin with please. Can you point to the verse that specifically spells this out?


as to the presentism , I was responding to this

Y'know, if this were a tale set in modern times, where the hero is the guy who has tried all non-violent methods to get justice, and had been treated as Laban treated Nephi up to and including setting a mob on him, and finally, in a last, courageous attempt to fix things, infiltrated a heavily armed and occupied camp, coming upon a lazy or drunken sentry, a knife to the throat would not have been seen as a problem. If that lazy and drunken sentry happened to be the commander of the camp...great. The hero does what the hero does. Hooyah.

In debate when one sets up a scenario of and then complains when someone responds in turn that is a:

a rather grave 'no no'

[dianaiad]

[Replying to post 15 by dianaiad]

12 And also a record of the Jews from the beginning, even down to the commencement of the reign of Zedekiah, king of Judah;

13 And also the prophecies of the holy prophets, from the beginning, even down to the commencement of the reign of Zedekiah; and also many prophecies which have been spoken by the mouth of Jeremiah.

14 And it came to pass that my father, Lehi, also found upon the plates of brass a genealogy of his fathers; wherefore he knew that he was a descendant of Joseph

It was a record of the Jews from the beginning down to the reign of Zedekiah, to me this reads as a genealogy of all the Jews among which Lehi also found his fathers on it.

Again if it was his plates he would have known what was on them no need to search through them.

16 And thus my father, Lehi, did discover the genealogy of his fathers. And Laban also was a descendant of Joseph, wherefore he and his fathers had kept the records.

It says right there that 'he and his fathers had kept the records.'

However, the original 'right' to them may or may not be debatable. I think he had the right to them, as evidenced by the fact that his genealogy was on them, that 'he and his fathers' had kept the records, and because Nephi simply asked for them from Laban, as if it were his right to so ask.

You claim that he did not, for reasons I find less than convincing.

Either way, The genealogy gives Lehi a certain claim to them, if not outright ownership. The second attempt to get those plates involved trading a great deal of gold, silver and other goodies, and Laban not only didn't give the plates up, he kept the goodies and attempted to have Nephi killed.

Pretty much every culture would acknowledge that if someone keeps monies given for payment, that he has given up ownership of that for which he has accepted payment.

Ergo, if Nephi didn't own the plates from the get go (as I think he did) He CERTAINLY did after he handed over the moolah.

As to the rest of your post, I did address what would have happened, truly, had this event taken place 'nowadays,' in a place where courts and cops actually existed.

You are still guilty of 'presentism,' in that you are judging Nephi according to your personal, modern, 'call 911 or complain to the cops if someone does you wrong' ethics.

No 911.
No cops.
No judges.
No justice available, especially when the 'one who done you wrong' IS one of the authority figures and powerful.

[DanieltheDragon]

It was a response to your bringing up modern days if I am guilty so are you if you don't like presentism don't bring up in modern days.

Also I really don't give a hoot what other people think I am a pacifist I find these types of interactions troubling. You asked me what I find troubling in the BoM as a pacifist I find this troubling. Now you might find my pacifism troubling and that's fine. I still find it troubling no matter how much you appeal to what other people think its not going to change my mind on what I think is wrong.

Lets just say your right about everything. I still think its wrong I still think that's troubling.

oh I found it this was the specific verse that made me think it was Laban's

5: 16 And thus my father, Lehi, did discover the genealogy of his fathers. And Laban also was a descendant of Joseph, wherefore he and his fathers had kept the records.

It was just a little bit down from where I quoted earlier.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 18 by DanieltheDragon]

It also kinda changes the story a bit when you think about it to if Laban was keeper of the records he was doing his job by not letting Nephi take them, not for any price. As they say though history is written by the victors.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 17 by dianaiad]

It says right there that 'he and his fathers had kept the records.'

The he refers to Laban not Lehi. "And Laban also was a descendant of Joseph, wherefore he and his fathers had kept the records.'

This is in the same sentence the pronoun refers to the proper noun used at the beginning of the sentence Laban. This clearly shows Laban was the keeper of the records. I really need to reread our posts because I think we had both glossed over this earlier focusing on the wrong things >.< sometimes the minor details can escape me. Glad I caught this one though.