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DanieltheDragon
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 6:05 pm  Does the bible outlaw gay marriage for non-believers? Reply with quote

I have read the bible up and down left and right. There are lots of things about abominations etc etc. What it doesn't say though is whether or not non-believers can have gay marriage. In fact the laws and commandments in the bible are specifically for the Jews. Jesus opened that up and through Paul's doctrine that became inclusive of the gentiles(those who were believers).


So question for debate does the bible outlaw gay marriage for non-believers?


Can anyone find a verse saying that non-believers cannot have gay marriage?
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 31: Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:52 pm
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[Replying to post 1 by DanieltheDragon]

Nope, God has given the worldly man over to its passions (Romans 1). It can do what it wants. However, it doesn't take away the sin of homosexuality. The reason the Bible says nothing on gay marriage specifically is because it doesn't even need to say that it is forbidden for believers based on God's view of homosexuality. If you won't inherit the Kingdom of God for practicing homosexuality (1 Cor. 6) then why would God condone a marriage where that is practiced?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 32: Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:02 pm
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[Replying to post 30 by RightReason]

Non-believers are under the Law just as believers. Believers and non-believers are free to follow or not to follow the Law as they see fit, but all will be Judged by it.

If you don't believe in the 50 mile an hour speed limit, are you not responsible if you break it.

Belief, therefore, is not an apriori factor for the identity of the focus of the belief to exist. The Bible describes the Law (or Word) of God. Some people believe it, others don't. Whatever, the belief, there will be consequences for our choices.

The Bible says homosexuality is clearly forbidden. Ergo: Homosexuality is wrong.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 33: Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:46 pm
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[Replying to post 32 by Kevin Cross]

sure you can find homosexuality wrong. However, Christian law is not the law of the land in this country. Why fore then must a non believer abide by your religious laws customs and practices? You don't abide by Hindu religious laws and Islamic religious laws do you?
why do you violate Hindu law? Just because you don't believe it doesn't mean you are not under it.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 34: Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:55 pm
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[Replying to DanieltheDragon]

Quote:
sure you can find homosexuality wrong. However, Christian law is not the law of the land in this country. Why fore then must a non believer abide by your religious laws customs and practices?


As already mentioned the immorality of homosexual acts are not based on religion anymore than suggesting killing, stealing, having sex with animals, adultery, etc are only wrong because the Bible says they are. All of the above can be demonstrated to be violations of natural law and therefore immoral/wrong.

All men whether they believe in God or not are subject to the moral law. Of course people can do what they want and ignore the moral law, but that doesn’t mean those things are not immoral and that a society has a right to speak out against such things if they feel so inclined – part of living in a democracy.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 35: Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:34 am
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[Replying to post 34 by RightReason]

There is no natural law of morality that is just an arbitrary set of ideals you foist upon your perspective of reality. As has been demonstrated throughout the animal kingdom many animals exhibit homosexual behaviors and in many circumstances such as in elephants it is socially beneficial.

Again as has been mentioned why don't you follow the moral laws of hinduism? Why should I consider Hindu religious laws or Abrahamic religious laws? If God doesn't exist I am not subject to god's law. Considering that God is just a figment of human imagination, you would be completely wrong to suggest anyone is under God's law.

Secondly and more importantly if everyone is subject to God's judgment there is no point in enforcing his laws to begin with. You either follow them or you don't and let God sort it out.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 36: Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:45 pm
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[Replying to DanieltheDragon]

Quote:
There is no natural law of morality that is just an arbitrary set of ideals you foist upon your perspective of reality.


Disagree. It is how/why all men can know right from wrong/good from bad. It is based on science, observation of the world we live in and man’s relationship with this world, reason, and logic. A thing’s shape/form says something about its function/purpose. We use this scientific approach to know what makes sense/what is in our best interest/what is ordered.


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As has been demonstrated throughout the animal kingdom many animals exhibit homosexual behaviors and in many circumstances such as in elephants it is socially beneficial.


First, man is not the same as animals so the same “rules” don’t apply. Some animals eat their young – clearly, it is wrong for man to eat his young. Second, many studies attempting to demonstrate homosexuality in nature are quite liberal in their distinction and categorize the rubbing of feathers against each other for some birds a “homosexual” act. The truth is there is no gay gene AND even if there is found some kind of natural or born that way evidence regarding same sex attraction, does this imply right/good? Are pedophiles born that way? Can a pedophile help his attraction to children?

Quote:
Again as has been mentioned why don't you follow the moral laws of hinduism?


Again, what are the moral laws of Hinduism? What are the moral laws of Christianity? What are the moral laws of atheists? What are the moral laws of Italians? Germans? Democrats? Lawyers?

Quote:
Why should I consider Hindu religious laws or Abrahamic religious laws?


You shouldn’t, unless your Hindu or Abrahamic? Religious laws are not necessarily moral laws.

Quote:
If God doesn't exist I am not subject to god's law.


We are all subject to the laws of the world we live in. Whether you give God credit for the world or not is of little consequence.

There is an old expression . . .

God always forgives.
Man sometimes forgives.
Nature never forgives.


Quote:
Considering that God is just a figment of human imagination, you would be completely wrong to suggest anyone is under God's law.


I didn’t mention God, you did.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 37: Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:01 am
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RightReason wrote:

Disagree. It is how/why all men can know right from wrong/good from bad. It is based on science, observation of the world we live in and man’s relationship with this world, reason, and logic. A thing’s shape/form says something about its function/purpose. We use this scientific approach to know what makes sense/what is in our best interest/what is ordered.

What is in your best interest, what is ordered, isn't necessarily moral though. There are endless counter-examples.

Quote:
The truth is there is no gay gene AND even if there is found some kind of natural or born that way evidence regarding same sex attraction, does this imply right/good? Are pedophiles born that way? Can a pedophile help his attraction to children?

That's the point - it's fallacious to link what is and isn't natural with what is and isn't good; and yet this one of the most comment argument used by your side is: homosexuality isn't natural therefore it is wrong.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 38: Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:51 pm
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[Replying to Bust Nak]

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it's fallacious to link what is and isn't natural with what is and isn't good; and yet this one of the most comment argument used by your side is: homosexuality isn't natural therefore it is wrong.


First, I think you are misunderstanding Natural Law argument. Natural Law argument is not simply based on that which is natural as in that which occurs in nature or natural as in not artificial or manmade.

Some things can occur in nature, for example someone could be born without arms and legs, but we can still argue that men were intended/supposed to be born with arms and legs and that arms and legs are good and that something obviously is wrong or messed up if a person is born without arms and legs. We can know this via observation of the world and understanding man and his relationship with this world.

So, no, the argument against homosexual acts is not that they are wrong because they aren’t natural in the sense you imply. We can know what is right/wrong via observation of nature. We can know what is right/good/ordered based on what we can observe and know from man and his relationship with this world. Like I said, things have a form/shape/function and can give us clues about that thing’s purpose/role. For example we know that human beings need food to live and be nourished and we know from observation and the way the world works, men eat food and that food is digested and converted into energy. Because of this we can conclude that eating is right and good for man in keeping with the proper order, while something like bulimia is disordered. Even though men can eat and then vomit, we can conclude that this is wrong/disordered. Human beings didn’t just decide that human beings should eat what they need and then allow their food to digest and that we were going to randomly decide we will oppose bulimia. All men can know bulimia is not properly ordered. We know how the body should work and function.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 39: Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:24 pm
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[Replying to post 36 by RightReason]

Quote:
It is based on science, observation of the world we live in and man’s relationship with this world, reason, and logic.


What science is this based on?

What observations?

What reason?

And what course of logic?


The only objectors to the LGBT community are specifically religious. If I am unaware of some scientific consensus or logical grounds to condemn the LGBT community please list them.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 40: Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:30 pm
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[Replying to post 36 by RightReason]

Quote:
first, man is not the same as animals so the same “rules” don’t apply. Some animals eat their young – clearly, it is wrong my for man to eat his young.


Man is the same as animals we are animals. Secondly as I said earlier there are no "rules". There are various reasons animals exhibit cannabilism. Lions for example might eat the young of competing males. This doesn't make it "right" for lions. I am sure the lions that had their young eaten would not be happy.

The bible does exhibit similar morality though, for example God ordered the murder of pregnant women and the death of children for tribes that occupied lands he wanted the Jews to occupy. So was God clearly wrong?

What about the Donner party that ate the dead to survive were they wrong?

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