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DanieltheDragon
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 6:05 pm  Does the bible outlaw gay marriage for non-believers? Reply with quote

I have read the bible up and down left and right. There are lots of things about abominations etc etc. What it doesn't say though is whether or not non-believers can have gay marriage. In fact the laws and commandments in the bible are specifically for the Jews. Jesus opened that up and through Paul's doctrine that became inclusive of the gentiles(those who were believers).


So question for debate does the bible outlaw gay marriage for non-believers?


Can anyone find a verse saying that non-believers cannot have gay marriage?
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 91: Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:44 pm
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[Replying to post 89 by marco]

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We see hexagonal pillars perfectly formed and deduce a giant made them.


Who does? I would not think a giant made hexagonal pillars. Now if I saw a sand castle while walking along the beach, I would quite reasonably deduce that that sand castle had a designer. That would be a scientific and intelligent deduction and most logical.

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That's because we want a DESIGNER for the "design"


Again, when I speak of design in this thread, I mentioned no shout out to a designer. I merely request a person acknowledge the design.


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.why does a mayfly, mouthless, live for a very short time? God took away its mouth of course! Patterns can arise out of frost falling on a window pane. Chaos needed just a starting point for order to beget more order, then an almost infinite amount of time to fool people into thinking the order was made by God.


Again, not asking you to credit God, just asking you to be honest with your observation of the world and the way it works. The argument about whether design needs a designer is an entirely different argument. And perhaps your problem if it is something that bothers you.

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We have no idea of how but we are slowly understanding that matter is far more complex than we first thought, We do not do science a service when we think there's a big invisible giant who sat in his workshop thinking out the chaos that exists as well as the nice elliptical orbits.


So, am I to believe you think any argument to order/design implies a designer? Why can't I argue design/order/pattern and use it to explain what we can know without mention of a designer?

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In fact there is a certain arrogance in looking around and inventing a god as the explanation, our little explanation, just because our minds are unequal to the task of explaining.... as yet.


I agree, but it is equally arrogant to refuse to believe the sand castle you see on the beach couldn’t possibly have had a designer because you think believing in a designer by fault means you will be forced to worship some guy in the sky. Let us acknowledge what we see and see where it takes us. Let’s not rule out possibilities because they don’t fit into our current atheistic worldview.

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Fortunately, many clever people have tried for less simplistic answers and we are the happy recipients of their labours.


Because truth is more true when it is simple or complex?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 92: Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:21 pm
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RightReason wrote:

I didn't see you send a message to Bust Nak with this comment of his to me,

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LOL! That’s not the way it works.

Perhaps he noticed that it was copied verbatim from your post?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 93: Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:56 pm
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DanieltheDragon wrote:

I have read the bible up and down left and right. There are lots of things about abominations etc etc. What it doesn't say though is whether or not non-believers can have gay marriage. In fact the laws and commandments in the bible are specifically for the Jews. Jesus opened that up and through Paul's doctrine that became inclusive of the gentiles(those who were believers).


So question for debate does the bible outlaw gay marriage for non-believers?


Can anyone find a verse saying that non-believers cannot have gay marriage?


I don't remember ever seeing anything that says "gay is bad" (considering 'gay' or 'homosexual' wasn't even a word in biblical days). What you may find is people who twists certain texts, phrases, words or even meanings to fit their ideal.
'Back in the day' most anything 'gay' was bad and referenced from the bible (at least according to my grandparents). So were things like mental issues, headaches, and a list of other items.
The bible is a breeding ground for hate and discourse when left to certain individuals who want their lives and thoughts to be all that matters for mankind.
Who knows - purple unicorns might even be found in the bible if one looks hard enough.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 94: Wed May 02, 2018 12:50 am
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DanieltheDragon wrote:

I have read the bible up and down left and right. There are lots of things about abominations etc etc. What it doesn't say though is whether or not non-believers can have gay marriage. In fact the laws and commandments in the bible are specifically for the Jews. Jesus opened that up and through Paul's doctrine that became inclusive of the gentiles(those who were believers).


So question for debate does the bible outlaw gay marriage for non-believers?


Can anyone find a verse saying that non-believers cannot have gay marriage?



Not only can I not find any verse prohibiting 'gay marriage', but Paul seems to point out that non-believers are free to do as they please. In the first chapter of his letter to the Romans he says repeatedly that God basically doesn't care what they do. He says God "gave them up..." It's practically condoned by God for non-believers.

"24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:... For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men...etc."

The thing that I find disturbing is that believers can't seem to stop obsessing over this issue when their own God moved on over two thousand years ago. If God has basically given his blessing, why do believers have a problem with it? I think it's becoming a moot point now as nobody really cares anymore; live and let live.

Although, I do think believers may have a point of contention in that there are more and more gay believers who are getting married and some churches are fearful that they may be forced to perform gay weddings, welcome gay couples etc.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 95: Fri May 04, 2018 8:20 am
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[Replying to post 94 by shnarkle]

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Not only can I not find any verse prohibiting 'gay marriage'


Any person doing a rudimentary reading of Scripture can conclude the Bible shows same sex relations as wrong/immoral. One can argue he doesn’t care what the Bible says or he doesn’t accept it, but he can’t deny where the Bible stands on same sex acts.


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Paul seems to point out that non-believers are free to do as they please


Nonbelievers are always free to do as they please. They are also free to be wrong.


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He says God "gave them up..." It's practically condoned by God for non-believers.


Not condoned, more like you can’t force someone to love you. If a person doesn’t believe in God and all He says, then God – allowing for free will – let’s them go.

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"24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:... For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men...etc."


Yes, this passage confirms God’s disapproval of same sex unions with words like dishonor and unnatural.

Quote:
The thing that I find disturbing is that believers can't seem to stop obsessing over this issue when their own God moved on over two thousand years ago.


As any good parent knows there comes a time when we have to “give our children up” to make their own decisions . . . this doesn’t mean we stop caring or trying to reach out to them. It isn’t considered obsessing for a parent to continue to want the best for their child when they are making bad choices.

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So question for debate does the bible outlaw gay marriage for non-believers?


Kind of like asking, does the Bible outlaw murder for non believers?

Truth is truth. Right is right and wrong is wrong. Even when someone refuses to accept/acknowledge it.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 96: Fri May 04, 2018 1:56 pm
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RightReason wrote:

[Replying to post 94 by shnarkle]

Quote:
Not only can I not find any verse prohibiting 'gay marriage'


Any person doing a rudimentary reading of Scripture can conclude the Bible shows same sex relations as wrong/immoral. One can argue he doesn’t care what the Bible says or he doesn’t accept it, but he can’t deny where the Bible stands on same sex acts.


In our post modern culture words like "wrong" or "immoral" have no meaning. The bible simply displays options that result in things like blessings or curses. This is pervasive throughout the bible. I'm not arguing that I don't care or that I don't accept it, and same sex acts don't necessarily need to be conflated with same sex marriage.

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Paul seems to point out that non-believers are free to do as they please


Nonbelievers are always free to do as they please. They are also free to be wrong.


Not really. There is nothing a nonbeliever can do to be saved or be right in God's eyes. They are not free to be right or wrong. Their standards of right and wrong are irrelevant to God. Paul goes into great detail in his letter to the Romans on why nonbelievers are effectively incapable of making a bad decision because they're all ultimately bad decisions.

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Quote:
He says God "gave them up..." It's practically condoned by God for non-believers.


Not condoned, more like you can’t force someone to love you. If a person doesn’t believe in God and all He says, then God – allowing for free will – let’s them go.


I didn't say "condoned". I said "practically condoned"; big difference! Free will has nothing to do with it. This isn't to say that nonbelievers don't have free will; just that free will isn't the deciding factor in God's plans, e.g. "not by will or effort, but by God Who shows mercy...etc."

God does not change wolves into sheep, or tares into wheat according to the desire or will of wolves and tares.

Quote:
"24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:... For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men...etc."


Quote:
Yes, this passage confirms God’s disapproval of same sex unions with words like dishonor and unnatural.


You're reading that into the text. I take out the trash, but I don't disapprove of the trash. I have no ill will towards the trash. I don't scold the trash and wish the trash could make something of itself. When I pick some vegetables from the garden and grab one that is beginning to rot, I toss it to the chickens, and while I may be disappointed that I didn't get it sooner, I don't disapprove of the tomato for being overly ripe.

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Quote:
The thing that I find disturbing is that believers can't seem to stop obsessing over this issue when their own God moved on over two thousand years ago.


As any good parent knows there comes a time when we have to “give our children up” to make their own decisions . . . this doesn’t mean we stop caring or trying to reach out to them. It isn’t considered obsessing for a parent to continue to want the best for their child when they are making bad choices.


This presupposes that they are his to begin with. I can see how you came to your conclusions with the words "gave them up", however in the broader scheme of things we already know that they were never God's to begin with. That's what he means by saying, "I never knew you". Not one of his will be lost.


Quote:

Quote:
So question for debate does the bible outlaw gay marriage for non-believers?


Kind of like asking, does the Bible outlaw murder for non believers?

Truth is truth. Right is right and wrong is wrong. Even when someone refuses to accept/acknowledge it.


The bible doesn't outlaw murder for nonbelievers. God's laws aren't directed at nonbelievers in the first place. Their adherence to the law is of no concern to God.

The worst thing one can do is to disbelieve God, that's why the first commandment is first and why it deals with honoring God. A nonbeliever should keep the commandments but only insofar as if they break them, they will be punished OUTSIDE the law. In other words, the law isn't for them. A prime example would be the sacrifice of children to pagan deities. This is forbidden by God, but he doesn't forbid it nor are any conseuqneces outlined for those who are outside the law, e.g. the pagan societies outside of Israel.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 97: Fri May 04, 2018 3:00 pm
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shnarkle wrote:


The worst thing one can do is to disbelieve God, that's why the first commandment is first and why it deals with honoring God. A nonbeliever should keep the commandments but only insofar as if they break them, they will be punished OUTSIDE the law. In other words, the law isn't for them. A prime example would be the sacrifice of children to pagan deities. This is forbidden by God, but he doesn't forbid it nor are any conseuqneces outlined for those who are outside the law, e.g. the pagan societies outside of Israel.


You are conflating contractual standing with practicality. The Scriptures do not say that Adonai "practically condones" behaviors of the nations that are contrary to HaTorah. HaTorah is just not a binding contract with those individuals. What Adonai condones or does not condone with regard to the nations is a seperate issue. That is why I generally do not make Scriptural arguments with regard to morality, unless the other person presents them as part of their argument.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 98: Fri May 04, 2018 4:41 pm
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[quote="bluethread"]
shnarkle wrote:


The worst thing one can do is to disbelieve God, that's why the first commandment is first and why it deals with honoring God. A nonbeliever should keep the commandments but only insofar as if they break them, they will be punished OUTSIDE the law. In other words, the law isn't for them. A prime example would be the sacrifice of children to pagan deities. This is forbidden by God, but he doesn't forbid it nor are any conseuqneces outlined for those who are outside the law, e.g. the pagan societies outside of Israel.


Quote:
You are conflating contractual standing with practicality.


No, I'm not. I'm separating them. Whoever I was responding to was suggesting that God cares about the salvation of those he has created for destruction. I simply pointed out that the law doesn't apply to them, especially within that context. I then pointed out that those who are not part of the contractual standing are not going tobe an issue if they stay away from Israel.

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The Scriptures do not say that Adonai "practically condones" behaviors of the nations that are contrary to HaTorah.


I never said they did. When I say that God practically condones, I'm saying that it is effectively the same.

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HaTorah is just not a binding contract with those individuals.


My point exactly.

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What Adonai condones or does not condone with regard to the nations is a seperate issue.


With what relevance?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 99: Fri May 04, 2018 10:41 pm
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[Replying to shnarkle]

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In our post modern culture words like "wrong" or "immoral" have no meaning.


Ha, ha, ha . . . maybe to you and if being totally honest probably not even you. All men can know rape is wrong/immoral. It’s a bit amusing when post modern man pretends he is “above” labels like right/wrong/moral. Morality is something all men can know and typically live their daily lives accordingly.


Quote:
The bible simply displays options that result in things like blessings or curses. This is pervasive throughout the bible.


Perhaps you are a bit confused. Something isn’t right or wrong/good or bad simply because the Bible says it’s right/wrong. Rather, the Bible says something is right/wrong because it is. IOW, murder isn’t wrong because in the Bible it says, “Thou shall not kill”, rather the reason the Bible says, “Thou shall not kill” is because it is wrong to kill.


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same sex acts don't necessarily need to be conflated with same sex marriage.


There is absolutely no evidence to conclude same sex marriage is condoned in the Bible. To do so would be reading what is not there.





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Nonbelievers are always free to do as they please. They are also free to be wrong.


Not really. There is nothing a nonbeliever can do to be saved or be right in God's eyes.


Huh? Jesus Christ dined with non believers. Scripture is full of examples of Christ speaking with and giving dignity to those who were not His followers.

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They are not free to be right or wrong. Their standards of right and wrong are irrelevant to God.


Incorrect. God created the world with its natural laws, which determine right/wrong. A non believer can do that which is good and right and a believer can do that which is wrong/bad. Scripture tells us good can be found outside of Christ’s followers. “Those who are not against us . . . “

Quote:
Paul goes into great detail in his letter to the Romans on why nonbelievers are effectively incapable of making a bad decision because they're all ultimately bad decisions.


Yes and no. You don’t get it. Again, one can find good outside of the Church and we ought to always encourage and acknowledge when we see good. Perhaps with just a twitch upon the thread, God can bring a person back again.


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free will isn't the deciding factor in God's plans, e.g. "not by will or effort, but by God Who shows mercy...etc."

God does not change wolves into sheep, or tares into wheat according to the desire or will of wolves and tares.


Of course He does BECAUSE He is merciful.


Quote:
Quote:
"24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:... For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men...etc."



Quote:
Yes, this passage confirms God’s disapproval of same sex unions with words like dishonor and unnatural.


You're reading that into the text.


What are you talking about? Those words are in the text.

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I take out the trash, but I don't disapprove of the trash. I have no ill will towards the trash.


Of course you do. You take it out because you know if you don’t in 3 days it’s really going to stink. Taking out the trash is rejecting the trash!

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When I pick some vegetables from the garden and grab one that is beginning to rot, I toss it to the chickens, and while I may be disappointed that I didn't get it sooner, I don't disapprove of the tomato for being overly ripe.


Throwing out the rotten fruit is showing disapproval for rotten fruit. You are saying you refuse to eat rotten fruit and you want no part of it.






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This presupposes that they are his to begin with.


Yes it does. Because His desire is that we all be His children.

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I can see how you came to your conclusions with the words "gave them up", however in the broader scheme of things we already know that they were never God's to begin with.


Not what I see . . .


“For from him and through him and for him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen.” –Romans 11:36

“The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.” -2 Peter 3:9

“But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” –Romans 5:8

“But you, O Lord, are a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness.” –Psalm 86:15

“Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.” 1 John 4:7-8

“But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—“ –Ephesians 2:4-5

“We love because he first loved us.” -1 John 4:19

“Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.” –Ezekial 18:4


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The bible doesn't outlaw murder for nonbelievers. God's laws aren't directed at nonbelievers in the first place. Their adherence to the law is of no concern to God.


This is what you don’t get. Truth is truth. That doesn’t simply apply to believers. If something is right/wrong, it is right/wrong for all. God created all of us and this world we live in. We can know right from wrong based on the world we live in. This is what you call Natural Law. So again, something isn’t wrong because the Bible says it is wrong. Rather the Bible says it is wrong because the Bible cannot contradict the natural laws that govern us.

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The worst thing one can do is to disbelieve God


Actually, the worst thing a person can do is to continue to disbelieve in God. And a bad thing to also do is to disbelieve in God’s love and mercy – a mercy that is big enough to melt away disbelief.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 100: Sat May 05, 2018 1:00 am
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[Replying to RightReason]

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All men can know rape is wrong/immoral.


Not Christ. He was a man, and he never knew. There are some tribes that no nothing of rape. They don't even have a word for it.


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The bible simply displays options that result in things like blessings or curses. This is pervasive throughout the bible.


Perhaps you are a bit confused. Something isn’t right or wrong/good or bad simply because the Bible says it’s right/wrong.[/quote]

I wasn't suggesting it was.

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same sex acts don't necessarily need to be conflated with same sex marriage.


There is absolutely no evidence to conclude same sex marriage is condoned in the Bible. To do so would be reading what is not there. [/quote]

I'm not suggesting that God condones sam sex marriage. I'm suggesting that God doesn't care when it is with regards to those who are outside the law.

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Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.


It doesn't say that whatever the law says it is written to those who are outside the law. The fact that 'the truth is the truth' is irrelevant. If God wrote his laws for everyone Paul wouldn't have blundered into that sentence saying it was just for those under the law. Paul is quite clear on the difference between being under the law and being outside the law.

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12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. Romans 2:12


There's no point in making this distinction if God cares about everyone. God is not a respecter of persons means that he doesn't play favorites. He's just, and those who are outside the law are screwed without a thought.


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Nonbelievers are always free to do as they please. They are also free to be wrong.


Not really. There is nothing a nonbeliever can do to be saved or be right in God's eyes.


Huh? Jesus Christ dined with non believers.[/quote]

Dining with non believers doesn't save them. Ask Judas Iscariot.

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Scripture is full of examples of Christ speaking with and giving dignity to those who were not His followers.


Speaking with and giving dignity doesn't save anyone either.


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They are not free to be right or wrong. Their standards of right and wrong are irrelevant to God.


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God created the world with its natural laws, which determine right/wrong.


Laws don't determine what is right or wrong. Is something right or wrong because the law says so, or does the law say it's right or wrong because it's right or wrong?

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A non believer can do that which is good and right and a believer can do that which is wrong/bad. Scripture tells us good can be found outside of Christ’s followers. “Those who are not against us . . . “


I'm not claiming that non believers can't do good works. Barring Christ, there is no better example of piety and righteousness than the Pharisees who Christ points out are "of your father the devil". They're the spawn of Satan and yet Christ himeself points out that if your righteousness does not exceed theirs you're gonna burn.

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Paul goes into great detail in his letter to the Romans on why nonbelievers are effectively incapable of making a bad decision because they're all ultimately bad decisions.


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one can find good outside of the Church and we ought to always encourage and acknowledge when we see good.


Sure, but that's not gonna save them.


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free will isn't the deciding factor in God's plans, e.g. "not by will or effort, but by God Who shows mercy...etc."

God does not change wolves into sheep, or tares into wheat according to the desire or will of wolves and tares.


Of course He does BECAUSE He is merciful.[/quote]


Not on those who "He hardens". Not on those he has power over to make unto dishonor Romans 9:21

Not on those who he is "willing to show his wrath and make his power known the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction" vs. 22 Moreover it is God's will that matters, and unless you think you can thwart God's will...

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The spirit breathes where HE WILLS, and you hear the sound of his voice, but can't tell where it comes from or where it goes, so it is with everyone who is born of the spirit.


Notice that the text doesn't suggest that it is according to your will? You can't summon the Spirit like a demon.


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Quote:
"24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:... For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men...etc."



Quote:
Yes, this passage confirms God’s disapproval of same sex unions with words like dishonor and unnatural.


You're reading that into the text.


What are you talking about? Those words are in the text. [/quote]

Not "disapproval". They are outside God's law. To be outside God's law is not to be under God's law. It has nothing to do with approval or disapproval. God simply doesn't care. Right or wrong, makes no difference to God, their gonna fry.


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This presupposes that they are his to begin with.


Yes it does. Because His desire is that we all be His children.


This presupposes that his desire is enough to presuppose we are all his to begin with. It isn't. Moreover, when he says, "I never knew you", most people would believe never means never.

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I can see how you came to your conclusions with the words "gave them up", however in the broader scheme of things we already know that they were never God's to begin with.


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“For from him and through him and for him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen.” –Romans 11:36


From him indicates he is the origin and author. Through him means that they are created by him, and for him indicates that all his creation glorifies God regardless of whether they be vessels fitted for destruction or mercy.

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“The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.” -2 Peter 3:9
Great! So we can all sit back and do whatever we want to as God's desire and wishes alone are enough to get us to where we should be, right? If that's the case then it matters not one iota what anyone does because we're all destined for heavenly glory. If that's not the case then his wishes aren't enough, and those he has power over to lump into a vessel fitted to destruction are going to be destroyed mercifully.

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“But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” –Romans 5:8


While they were still sinners. Paul is writing to the church, right? He's not writing to the synagogue of Satan. "We" means the church.



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The bible doesn't outlaw murder for nonbelievers. God's laws aren't directed at nonbelievers in the first place. Their adherence to the law is of no concern to God.


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We can know right from wrong based on the world we live in.


Where I live abortion is considered not only legitimate, but a moral good. Women go out and protest those who disagree with them with signs which read: "I love abortions" This is the world we live in. So is what is right because it's right, or because of what the world we live in says is right?

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something isn’t wrong because the Bible says it is wrong.


And the bible is God's word. God's word is God's will. Is God synonymous with his will or not? In other words does God go against his will or with it?

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Rather the Bible says it is wrong because the Bible cannot contradict the natural laws that govern us.


So the natural laws of the whole of creation are superior to the God who created them? Go ahead and elaborate on that one cause we're not buying it.

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The worst thing one can do is to disbelieve God


Quote:
Actually, the worst thing a person can do is to continue to disbelieve in God. And a bad thing to also do is to disbelieve in God’s love and mercy – a mercy that is big enough to melt away disbelief.


Actually I think you have a point here. The worst thing one can do is to conflate the ability of God with his will. Could God create automatons? Perhaps, but the fact is that God must create evil for their to be free will in the first place. You can't choose evil or damnation if that option doesn't exist in the first place. He didn't create it knowing no one would choose it. He didn't create it to prove he had the ability to keep you out of it. He created it to send those he created for the express purpose of destroying them.

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