Magic and challenges

[agnosticatheist]

I have a question for those who practice magic (Witchcraft, black magic, etc).

If you practice magic and do so to gain certain benefits (power, control, promotions in the workplace, the affection of another person, etc), does this not feel cheap to you?

Where's the challenge in that?

Maybe this is just my personal perspective/preference, but I enjoy challenge, struggle, etc. I like working towards a desired outcome.

Using magic almost seems like using cheat codes in a video game.

What's the point?

Using magic to bring about a desired outcome seems lazy, and maybe desperate too.

But that's just me.

Let me hear from yall.

[Pazuzu bin Hanbi]

Does it work every time you ‘cast a spell’? No, it does not. In order to hone and crystallise your intent (for that is what magic is) you need to put work in. It may be of a different sort than the type of work you’re talking about, but it is effort nonetheless.

So, no. Not cheap.

[Mask of the Devil]

Magic is not cheap. I wish it was, but it isn't.

If it was, I would not care about cheap or not, just about results. As for anything else.

[Divine Insight]

If you practice magic and do so to gain certain benefits (power, control, promotions in the workplace, the affection of another person, etc), does this not feel cheap to you?

Yes it would, and I would never attempt to employ magick for those purposes directly. In fact, I would never attempt to employ magick to change the behavior or decisions of another person.

I have used magick in the past to obtain "opportunities". In other words, I have used magick in the past to obtain job interviews as well as creating an opportunity to get to know someone I might not otherwise have had the opportunity to meet. But when it comes down to actually convincing the person to employ me, (or like me), that's entirely up to me to do on my own.

Like you say, if you actually used magick for those types of things it would be superficial in any case.

I won't hesitate to use magick to physically heal my own body though. I have no problem cheating doctors and pharmacies out of selling their products or services.

I cannot use magick to physically heal other people though unless they are participating in the magick. And if they know how to do that, then they don't need me anyway.

[help3434]

[Replying to Divine Insight]

So do you really think you can use magic to heal your own body?

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to Divine Insight]

So do you really think you can use magic to heal your own body?

Within limits yes. I don't claim that magick is "all-powerful". Nor do I claim that magick has been correctly portrayed by Hollywood.

I see magick as being potential viable even in a purely secular world. You might suggest that it's not really magick then. And you might have a point, however, the bottom line is that if you don't understand it, or go through the psychic motions required to employ it, then it's still not going to work even though it may be a purely secular power.

You may be able to drive a nail into a board in a secular world. But you still need to go through the motion of hitting it with a hammer. It's the same way with magic. Magic isn't going to happen unless you go through the motions required to make it happen.

This is why I say that I can't heal other people unless they are participating in the magick. And if they already know how to do that, then they don't need me.

[Neatras]

[Replying to post 6 by Divine Insight]

Out of curiosity, I'd like to at least know some methodology you employ in order to make use of what you refer to as magic. What processes, physical/mental or otherwise, are you capable of enacting in order to create a relevant change in your environment or person?

And to tack on an additional question, is there a verifiable difference between employing your methodology to "heal the body," and doing absolutely nothing at all, simply letting the body heal naturally?

I understand you've stated, time and time again, that using magic and actually performing a basic action are synonymous, or at least analogous, but it doesn't seem to click with me. I don't understand how there's any legitimate difference between behaving normally (ie not using magic), and doing what you perceive as magic (ie not normal, otherwise it would not be called magic).

In the end, I just don't have ANYTHING substantial I can use to fit into my own perspective and worldview, DI. And I don't think I've EVER seen you demonstrate or explain it with any kind of clarity. Only more analogous references to real practices and events.

[Divine Insight]

Out of curiosity, I'd like to at least know some methodology you employ in order to make use of what you refer to as magic. What processes, physical/mental or otherwise, are you capable of enacting in order to create a relevant change in your environment or person?

The processes I employ are most psychic (or cerebral if you prefer), however, I do use external physical props to enhance the cerebral experience. How useful the external props are is certainly open to controversy. I think some people require these more than others. I personally feel that I benefit from external props (or tools) and so I employ them. But at the same time I recognize that they are ultimately just visual tools that I use to focus my "spiritual" energy. (I use the term "spiritual" here simply to encompass any energies that I may potentially be using. Since I do not claim to have a precise reductionistic explanation for them)

So I do employ rituals that include things like candles and physical objects such as crystal wands and pointy daggers. The idea behind these objects is that they supposedly help to physic the spiritual energies. Many people claim that a mere finger will do. Others claim that there's no need to use any physical object to direct the flow of energy at all. I actually believe they are right, but I still prefer to use these physical crutches, partly because it's just plain fun, but also because I think they do help me to visualize psychically the concentration of energy. They also act to set a psychic mood, which I also feel is important. At least for me.

The idea is to focus mental energy on the "though" of what you want to accomplish, and never on the thought of what you are attempting to banish. I think a lot of people make the mistake of focusing on the thought of what they are trying to banish, and in doing do they actually feed the very thing they are attempting to banish.

But ultimately, the main idea is actually quite simple. You just focus on imagining in your mind the results you wish to obtain, and in doing so you give that result your psychic energy (all of your spiritual energy) the power to become manifest, whilst ignoring the very thing that you are attempting to banish and giving it none of your spiritual power at all.

And to tack on an additional question, is there a verifiable difference between employing your methodology to "heal the body," and doing absolutely nothing at all, simply letting the body heal naturally?

I haven't done any studies like that on myself. I simply find that if I pay attention to my health that seems to produce far better results than ignoring if I ignore it.

In terms of studies, I would point to the medical profession. I believe they have already shown that people who are optimistic about healing and getting better, tend to get recover far quicker than people who are pessimistic about getting better. I would suggest that this shows that person's psychic state does indeed contribute to their well-being. I see no reason why this can't be made methodical. If a person can focus on being optimistic and determined to recover from something, then it can only be in their favor.

I understand you've stated, time and time again, that using magic and actually performing a basic action are synonymous, or at least analogous, but it doesn't seem to click with me. I don't understand how there's any legitimate difference between behaving normally (ie not using magic), and doing what you perceive as magic (ie not normal, otherwise it would not be called magic).

That can depend on what you are calling "normal" behavior.

As I've just mentioned above, even the medical community has recognized that people who are psychologically optimistic about healing have statistically healed quicker and better than people who are not. You may say that those people are not employing "magick", but actually in a sense they would be (at least by my definition of magic) because they are indeed employing their physic power of mentally visualizing themselves fully recovered.

So just because a person doesn't claim to use "magick" doesn't mean they aren't employing it. You don't need to dress up like a wizard, wear a pointy hat, and a robe with stars on it. But hey, if it helps inspire the mood why not?

In the end, I just don't have ANYTHING substantial I can use to fit into my own perspective and worldview, DI. And I don't think I've EVER seen you demonstrate or explain it with any kind of clarity. Only more analogous references to real practices and events.

Well, like I say, what I consider to be "magick" you may consider to be "secular realism".

I wouldn't even argue with that. In fact, I was even thinking of writing a book entitled, "Magick for the Secular Skeptic". Because as I see it, a lot of magick can be useful in a purely secular world. Even if the Big Bang was a totally freak materialistic accident and we are nothing more than the result of this freak accident, there still may be something to the power of thought and imagination.

Like I say, even the medical professionals have recognized that psychic attitude clearly counts for something. You might even say that my definition of "magick" is really nothing more than the methodical employment of psychic attitude.

If wearing a magic robe, lighting a candle and incense, and waving a magick wand around whilst reciting poetic incantations helps to inspire your psychic attitude, then why not go for it?

~~~~~

Just on a further note, I would like to go back to your original quote that I had already address earlier int his post:

Out of curiosity, I'd like to at least know some methodology you employ in order to make use of what you refer to as magic. What processes, physical/mental or otherwise, are you capable of enacting in order to create a relevant change in your environment or person?

It is well-know and psychologically demonstrated, that various sensual stimulation can induce (or recall) specific mental states of consciousness.

This is a very large part of what I use. And I've learned this from having read many books on magick. I keep seeing this very same core idea that consistent ritual is very important in magick.

Our sense of smell has a very profound affect on our memory. That is to say that specific aromas tend to bring back specific memories. This is actually used in the practice of magick almost universally. This is why the burning of incense if very popular in occult practices. Unfortunately many people don't fully understand how to use this.

A large part of learning how to perform "magick" is the ability to bring yourself into a particular state of consciousness at will. The first thing a person must learn is how to enter into different states of consciousness. This is done through the practice of mediation. Incense is often used to associate a particular aroma with a particular state of consciousness. By doing this via purposeful practiced mediation, a person can then often enter into that state of consciousness by simply lighting the incense associated with that state of consciousness. The aroma of that particular incense brings back the memory of that particular state of consciousness.

So using incense has a practical use in this psychological journey.

The same is true for any other physical props that may be used. Music is another method by which a person can easily recreate a previous state of consciousness. These are important because it may not be easy to put yourself into those states of consciousness when you are sick. Thus you can use music or incense to force your state of consciousness away from your ailment.

Your illness is doing everything in its power to have you focus on it. That's precisely what you don't want to do. You want to rob it of your psychic energy and put your psychic energy to work imagining a healthy body.

So there are many tools that can be used. But incense and music are two of the most powerful tools. But of course they are only going to help if you had previously associated them with positive psychic states of consciousness and well-being. In other words, the "practice of magick" requires that you practice it long before you actually need it.

So much of the time when you are "practicing magick" you aren't actually doing anything magickal at all. You're just preparing mental states of consciousness for when you need to employ them.

This is why when you talk to people who actually use magick they will tell you that it's 99% work and 1% return.

But boy when you need that 1% return you are very glad to get it.

[Yahu]

[Replying to Divine Insight]

So do you really think you can use magic to heal your own body?

I knew a witch that had her jaw broken and teeth knocked out by a softball bat. The doctors on base (it was in the Air Force) wanted to put in studs into her jaw to attach false teeth. She refused and told them she would grow back new teeth. They said it was impossible but she shocked them when the saw on x-rays the teeth regenerating like in a child. She grew back all the missing teeth.

Granted she was a very evil girl. I knew her in her early 20s and she had already had 23 abortions she had dedicated to her goddess and used the blood from her fetus' in her witchcraft.

She did some incredibly evil things and a group of girls on base gave her a blanket party. My ex-wife was involved. A friend of mine was the one that took the softball bat to her. She should have been convicted and sent to prison with the rest of her coven but everyone was to scared to testify against her. It didn't even matter if they got a reduced sentence, they didn't think they would live long enough to get out of prison if they testified against her.

She also used her witchcraft to get rid of all the scars and regrow out her long hair in a short time. Her waist length blonde hair had been shaved during the blanket party.

[Pazuzu bin Hanbi]

I knew a witch that had her jaw broken and teeth knocked out by a softball bat. The doctors on base (it was in the Air Force) wanted to put in studs into her jaw to attach false teeth. She refused and told them she would grow back new teeth. They said it was impossible but she shocked them when the saw on x-rays the teeth regenerating like in a child. She grew back all the missing teeth.

Granted she was a very evil girl. I knew her in her early 20s and she had already had 23 abortions she had dedicated to her goddess and used the blood from her fetus' in her witchcraft.

She did some incredibly evil things and a group of girls on base gave her a blanket party. My ex-wife was involved. A friend of mine was the one that took the softball bat to her. She should have been convicted and sent to prison with the rest of her coven but everyone was to scared to testify against her. It didn't even matter if they got a reduced sentence, they didn't think they would live long enough to get out of prison if they testified against her.

She also used her witchcraft to get rid of all the scars and regrow out her long hair in a short time. Her waist length blonde hair had been shaved during the blanket party.

Can you introduce me to her?