Why does God need a book?

[OnceConvinced]

The bible tells us about the Book of Life, which contains the names of those who have been saved and are going to Heaven. If your name does not appear you go to Hell. (Chick Tracts even have God asking the chief Angel "Does his name appear in the book of life?")

There are two issues I have with this (and topics for discussion):

1) If God is all knowing and he knows each of us personally, then why does he need a book to record our names? Santa doesn't need a book to know who's naughty and nice. He just knows. But God needs a book. Why does he need a book when he is all knowing?

2) Why a book? Wouldn't they have really amazing technology in Heaven? You'd think they'd have computers, perhaps even something superior to computers. If the bible had described some kind of metal box that contained all the names... or perhaps a flat round disk, that would go a long way to showing that the bible was divine and not just ancient man's ignorance. Imagine how huge the book would have to be! It would be mammoth. So why use a book rather than some other form of data storage?

Feel free to speculate, even if you have nothing solid.

[OnceConvinced]

Usergroup: Former Christian
Reply as to why the Jews hated Jesus Christ: Yep. They clearly hated him due to his arrogance and his judgmental attitude towards them.

Similar to;

Usergroup: Former Physician

Opinion on a persistent headache: Decapitation

What on Earth are you talking about? How is that in any way similar?

Why is it that I somehow doubt you were ever a Christian? Hmm... ?

I'm betting it's because you wish to discredit me. If it's possible to be an ex-Christian then you fear it could happen to you.

My views have changed radically over the last few years. I can look at the stories of Jesus now and no longer have to have the rose-colored glasses on. I can see that Jesus arrogance would have been the reason why so many people despised him. I no longer have to have the mindset that he was the son of God and sinless. I can now see him as a fallible man.

[Korah]

[Replying to post 100 by OnceConvinced]
I realize all too well, OnceConvinced,
That friend arian is all over the map will-of-the-wisp, yes,
But two hours after he dissed you as you correctly quoted here,
in another thread he honored you as such a sincere former Christian that he had visions of converting you to his beliefs (cult, 10 of the 40,000, whatever).
Is he still around or has he been banned yet? I've given up trying to tone him down.
EDITED TO ADD:
I just found where he's inviting you in to his fold. It's Post #64 in Pascal's Wager Again:
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... ht=#718336
He has no further posts in the last 40 hours, but he's not even Under Probation yet, best I can tell.

[OnceConvinced]

I just found where he's inviting you in to his fold. It's Post #64 in Pascal's Wager Again:
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... ht=#718336
.

Oh you mean God's holy church?

[Korah]

[Replying to post 102 by OnceConvinced]
To be fair, arian allows there might be up to 10 true Christian denominations. But I suppose that's so he won't feel lonely as the only Christian, he likes to think there might be other Christians out there he hasn't run into yet.

[arian]

[Replying to post 95 by arian]
arian, please,
I don't know if I'm the only one trying to keep you from being banned, but you're not co-operating with me.

If I cooperate with you (whatever you mean by that? Do you mean if I become a Mormon or something?) will you keep me on this forum? I really, really love it here, and I have expressed my gratitude for the things I have learned I could never repay, .. to everyone here, including Z, and Dianaiad.

I can't help if I debate Mormonism and Dianaiad gets offended, that's what debate is. I'm sorry but I just don't get this new stile of debate where if I am debating someone, I have to add this (generic) stuff, like if I ask: "Who is Mormo Dianaiad (generic Dianaiad)?" Or it's ok for a Jew to mention things about Jews, .. but because I am a Christian I can't!?
If Debaters bash the Bible, God of the Bible, call Jesus whatever evil they can muster up, I debate it.

Anyways, .. If you are the only one who wants me here, and that on the condition of 'cooperating with you', then I really don't have a purpose here. No offense, but I cannot cooperate with ideologies that I find opposing to Biblical teachings, and condoning (Queer - as someone identified themselves as, .. I can't say who mentioned it, it was 'someone', some 'generic person') is a cooperation I would never be a part of.
I do appreciate the thought though.

Far as I can tell (I have not read everything he has to say) "once convinced" has made as good a case for having legitimately been a "Christian", whatever that means to you, me, or anyone.

As far as you can tell, hmm... I pointed out what the Bible considers a 'Christian', and that is as 'far' as I can tell. My personal feelings is irrelevant, and as long as "Christian" is defined by the Bible and Jesus Christ of the Bible, that is what I will stand on.
Yes, I know there are 40,000 + versions of Christians, even Christian atheists, and Christian homosexuals, but that's beside the point.

If you continue to castigate people by name I will have to conclude that you welcome banishment and should not be allowed any further role here even on the "comic relief" or "Mark of Cain" categorization that I have been trying to establish for you (and for a certain other party much beloved by our moderators).
I will miss you, but at this point I'm not sure anyone else will.

Nice of you to speak for everyone else here. That is what others (generic) have been doing until I decided to put my foot down. From now on I believe Christians should demand that God-haters prove, or show evidence why they call God, The Bible and Jesus and everything that is true and Holy, evil?

I post this even realizing that I am risking my own banishment for being so personal. I hope you think it was worth it to risk my fate here as well as yours.

You are risking banishment for this? Let me check, .. ah, really, .. I don't see it?

[Korah]

[Replying to post 104 by arian]
Ya gotta like this or....
Here I thought arian had found no one here worthy of consideration but me.
I'm so hurt.
Now I've got no fans at all.
As they say, what fellowship can light have with darkness? I'm perhaps the most over-educated person here on DC&R and arian seems to be claiming he's the least.
Now I know how the rest of you guys feel about Joey Knothead. I like arian anyway.
And I think I was wrong about him. Same as with Joey, he's comic relief.
Mods--do I get to write my own epitaph?
The ultimate irony is that I'll get banned for posing as a Mormon? And arian will continue on here sacrosanct because he doesn't know any better (but I do, so I'm guilty and banishable) and strkes out wildly at the Great Mormon Conspiracy here against him (that I'm the Great Satan instigator of).
How long before I'll think better of this and delete it all.
I know--I'll post this in Random Rambling and escape banishment.
Er...how do I do that?
Can I report my own post and beg a Mod to save me from myself?
How about I report ARIAN's post and tell them to move MINE to Random Ramblings?
Sounds like a plan. Onwards.
WHAT? I can "Like" my own post? That's weird. No mods in sight yet.

[arian]

[Replying to post 89 by arian]
I see, arian,
That you feel free to disagree with me, even though I'm the only poster here on DC&R that you found palatable.

I love everyone here, that's why I spend so much time carefully debating their ideas. You know, so we could all get to Heaven.

That's good, you think for yourself--as if ANYONE here had any doubt about that!
Once again you quote something, and at least you stated correctly the verses were from Job 33. Did you notice that there were several parenthetical flourishes? Were they yours? Were they from some commentator whose text you were copying? My guess these were from the very tendentious Amplified Bible that I never would consider using.
EDITED TO ADD:
Closer study reveals that (some at least of) the words in parentheses are yours, arian.

Yes, .. they were mine.

Therefore I feel entitled to give a contrasting interpretation from the Reincarnationist side, and without even interposing any commentary or interpretation at all. Of course I'll admit that the New Amercian Bible is the standard pulpit Bible of the Roman Catholic Church, so now you'll hate me forever, but here goes:
NAB Job ch. 33:
22 His soul draws near to the pit,
his life to the place of the dead.
23 If then there be for him an angel,
one out of a thousand, a mediator,
To show him what is right for him
and bring the man back to justice,
24 He will take pity on him and say,
"Deliver him from going down to the pit;
I have found for him a ransom."
25 Then his flesh shall become soft as a boy's;
he shall be again as in the days of his youth.
26 He shall pray and God will favor him;
he shall see God's face with rejoicing.
27 He shall sing before men and say,
"I have sinned and did wrong,
Yet he has not punished me accordingly.
28 He delivered my soul from passing to the pit,
and I beheld the light of life."
29 Lo, all these things God does,
twice, or thrice, for a man,
30 Bringing back his soul from the pit
to the light, in the land of the living.

OK, .. what's your point?

[arian]

[Replying to post 104 by arian]
Ya gotta like this or....
Here I thought arian had found no one here worthy of consideration but me.
I'm so hurt.
Now I've got no fans at all.
As they say, what fellowship can light have with darkness? I'm perhaps the most over-educated person here on DC&R and arian seems to be claiming he's the least.
Now I know how the rest of you guys feel about Joey Knothead. I like arian anyway.
And I think I was wrong about him. Same as with Joey, he's comic relief.
Mods--do I get to write my own epitaph?
The ultimate irony is that I'll get banned for posing as a Mormon? And arian will continue on here sacrosanct because he doesn't know any better (but I do, so I'm guilty and banishable) and strkes out wildly at the Great Mormon Conspiracy here against him (that I'm the Great Satan instigator of).
How long before I'll think better of this and delete it all.
I know--I'll post this in Random Rambling and escape banishment.
Er...how do I do that?
Can I report my own post and beg a Mod to save me from myself?
How about I report ARIAN's post and tell them to move MINE to Random Ramblings?
Sounds like a plan. Onwards.
WHAT? I can "Like" my own post? That's weird. No mods in sight yet.

Look, you made your point, you would like me banished.

You want to debate Mormonism? Great, let's do this; we have "Define Christian" OP, how about you define 'Mormon'? I mean we hear Mormon thrown around these days quite a bit even commercials on TV; "I'm a teacher, and I'm a Mormon", .. "I'm a doctor and I'm Mormon"

Christian which derived from the Bible from Jesus Teachings and doings, means "Christ-like".

Mormon derived from _____________?
And Mormo means _____________ ?

You see, debate, .. please?

If you think JoeyK is comic relief, you are not the most over educated person on DC&R, .. or anywhere, but if you can define Mormo for us, in my mind at least I'll put you in the top 10, .. OK?

[arian]

Arian wrote
LOL, .. you are funny.

Yeah, according to special relativity, if we took that hammer at 0.99999 C and threw it out the window, it would be tiny as a quark, and weigh near the mass of the entire universe, and would annihilate every star and planet in it's way! Talking about Odin's Hammer!!

Thank you for proving my point, Arian. Over and over and over again. You demonstrate with every post that not only do you contribute nothing worth considering, you are simply wrong. You can cite nothing that supports this far fetched summation of special relativity as its understood commonly today. This is a willfully ignorant summary according to Arian, and only Arian. No one has proposed what you've written as being factually accurate. You don't listen. You don't attempt to comprehend what's being taught to you, and the above example is a perfect specimen of your ignoring science, reason, the efforts of other members, and simply weaving your own tapestry of reality. You hear what you want to hear, which is no crime. The crime is when you post it and expect anyone to listen or respect it as meaningful/factual.

Boy, that sure proved I am wrong about 'special relativity', I was hoping you to debate it? This is just rambling about this guy arian who just refuses to be indoctrinated.
My own tapestry of reality is science, not Sci-Fientology.

Why, you don't believe in the non-man made God? Must every god be man-made? It sure seems like it since no one can understand the One True God "I Am Who I Am".

Absolute drivel. You can repeat yourself in bold type, italics, underscores, whatever you like. Asserting there is ''One True God'' that no one understands but you is simply that; an assertion.

No it's science and you know it. I asked you guys to study quantum mechanics, then quantum consciousness, the learn a little about Transhumanism and the Blue-Brain Project in association with the LHC and CERN "Parallel Universe Project", and you will see that it all refers to a 'Portal'.
Now if you studied your Bible especially what Jesus was teaching about being 'Born Again', you would understand why Sci-Fientology is working their own version of being 'born again'. I call it the 'Great Escape', which will end just like it did for the Heavens Gate Cult members, .. only on a global scale.

You have never demonstrated this to be true. Rather you have written overly lengthy and convoluted essays more or less forcing the audience to accept that the entire world apart from Arian is in error regarding the issue of deities.

Oh no, they are right about deities, they are demons. But to conflate demons with our Eternal Creator, well that there is blasphemy because our Creator is Spirit, the Holy Spirit, and blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven.

For someone whose reasoning is limited by evolution, genetic mutation, change in heritable traits of biological populations over successive generations, are you sure you want to debate special relativity with someone who is created in The Creators image, and not only is aware of it, but understands it?

Everyone's reasoning is limited by a great many things. Some obviously more so than others. You're free to maintain an awareness of being created by some ''Creator'' in its ''image,'' but until such time as you can show this is true, you're only continuing to make noise.

I have, and I continue to show it true, but for people who don't believe in the mind being separate from the brain (funny how they believe it CA BE separated!?), the word 'Infinite' in it's absolute meaning is just 'noise'.

Besides, what alternate ideas do you have to a Creator? I mean if you shown me an ape giving birth to a human (any monkey in the ape family) Just One, .. then you could talk. But until then, it's billion year old fairytales.
I on the other hand show you up-to-date, the most advanced and just starting to be understood 'science'. Science, which is observing the living and the world around us here in the Now, .. not billion year old assumptions.

OK, first question; "What reason?"
Are you talking about reason that was brought about by a chaotic accident 4.2 billion years ago from a primordial soup puddles that accumulated by rocks sweating? Or are you talking about 'reason' that was brought about by the cosmic accident that forced a quantum speck of you know not what to appear from nothing exactly 13.75 billion years ago?

And here you go again. With no understanding or desire to understand the origins of life on this planet (hint: it's unknown at this time), you send a shotgun blast of insane caricatures forth that try to encapsulate abiogenesis and our universe's beginning. But you fail. Over and over you fail, Arian. You have NEVER had an objection to an idea on this forum that proceeded from a proper understanding of the concept you opposed. Even now, I bet you're deciding what sort of nonsensical rant you'll type up to respond to this, oblivious to anything I'm pointing out

Oh no, it is because I understand it fully, and refuse to get into some unrelated specifics about gnats getting VD, or moths adapting to city life vs. single celled bacteria over billions of years evolving to monkeys, and more millions of years where monkey evolve to a humans.
I have 'proper understanding' of evolution falsely labeled theory, your grudge is that I refuse to ignore the past 4 billion year old un-scientific, unobserved fairytale stories and just concentrate on the fossils, or the gnats here and now, which I consider the main part of the magic trick to work, the waving of the hands to distract, .. just as you are doing it again.

I asked you; "what reason means from an evolutionary standpoint?"
Please tell me, or show me from those great Evolutionists how reason/mind evolved to ask "who am I?"

Remember to show some human reasoning from your ancestors, .. in the HERE and NOW. Remember you claim you are still an animal, an ape, and we have animals still around, and apes too. Same 4. 2 billion years old as us, in the same location, same food source, same environment as us. So show me?

Oh No, not the trained circus animal Koko, unless you can show me her drawing or writing out: "Get me out of this frikin' cage! Stop pointing at me like I was some dumb animal!" or something like that?

Here is Koko (as the video claims) "walking hand in hand to a whole New World of understanding" .. on a leash, or in a cage with Penny Peterson, .. pllleease?!?

A Conversation with Koko;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNuZ4OE6vCk

Or a lion, a dog, a pig, a rat, .. In time I could train any animal to do tricks for food and dialog FOR them.
Where is the proof???

Listen how Penny dialogs for Koko's sign language, I've seen ventriloquists do that to humans they put in some puppet suit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJ0Cfnsemyc

It's funny, but to actually teach this in College to real humans is not funny anymore.

Since we are on the Christian Debating Forum, I can assume you mean the reason that we inherited in our mind from our Creator God The Infinite, Eternal Creative Mind/Spirit "I Am Who I Am"? Which if that's the reasoning you are talking about, then that reason can ONLY reveal the obvious, that there can be but One Creator, and He is conscious, aware of Himself, able to create, within His Infinite Mind.

I'm just going to comment here as a bookmark, and to give you the opportunity to re-read that paragraph of yours. If you can find an ounce of sense in it you expect a response to, I'll be floored.

Don't get floored my friend, unless on your knees in prayer of thanksgiving to God that now you have scientific proof of His existence, .. within You, and won't have to degrade yourself accepting some unprovable religious interpretation from now on.

not just one, but 16oz. of sense:

start with; reason - our mind - dream, design, create - everything except the things we didn't design create (here it comes) - Mind; The Infinite Eternal Creative Spirit "I Am Who I Am" - dream, design, create everything else we didn't create, including our bodies, but NOT our minds. Why?
Because if you observed your mind, no, .. not your brain, your mind, .. the one your brain could never observe (may see on an MRI screen with your eyes), but our brain could never make any sense of our brain it sees with the eyes. BUT, our mind can make perfect sense both of the brain, and our mind (our spirit/mind searches even the deepest secrets of our mind/spirit.)

Look, why would there be a world wide effort with billions of dollars backing it (while they drive half the world to starvation) to separate the mind/spirit/soul of man, digitize it (that's right, they believe they could actually digitize it) so by this they admit that what has been created, or the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.

So they are beginning to realize the reality that we see, feel handle, that in the quantum realm is a digital world, not visible.

In our computer Matrix it's made up of 1's and 0's, but what about that makes up the 1's and the 0's? You know, the 1's and 0's that are in the programmers mind before he hits the keyboard?

This is where I see gravity and how it works, how it can pull a small object above a giant object (like in a tunnel, you could drop a pin above the mass of the mountain that is above you, and drop a pin in the tunnel next to you, and they both fall at the same rate. there is so much more to that, but you guys just rambled it off the past few times I mentioned it, so never mind) so if I can actually visualize gravity and how it works, then it should show you the level that I can reason, and buddy it ain't coming by evolution.

Yeah, .. show me proof, .. right? First you have to understand the difference between the brain and the mind, the first thing you would have to do is scrap the "brain creating the mind" evolutionary ideology, because like I said, the brain would have to 'evolve reason', and we would never be having this conversation. There would be no reason to, .. especially if you believe that evolution is a purposeless aimless, mutated process that takes billions of years of luck to do anything.

Unless you 'speak for the dice', like that lady scientist speaks for Koko.
Rolled a six: Look, the dice just asked "who am I?"

I agree with you there; Gods that have to be argued into existence are really no use for anyone, and don't exclude yourself from that wise statement, it's true!

As Z pointed out, I overlooked the usefulness of said gods when it comes to manipulating minds and laws in the misguided service of them.

See, there you go referring to religions and their man made delusion-gods. The religion is manipulating minds, this is why in these Last Days they resorted to chem-trails, and keep adding more and more fluoride to our water, to numb the brain to keep the 'mind' from being able to recollect the information we stored in there. This is also why they keep programming us, so those that still can pull some info from the brain, they'll be only getting what they put in there through generations of programming.
Like your schooling on Evolution and the BB-theory for instance, I know you understand where I'm coming from, but you have so much BB-Evolution stored in there, and so many quotes from Z, that's all you can pull out, gods, religion, fairytales. But of course the fairytale religion that you are in, or believe in are NOT fairytales, only those other religions are. Can't you see the similarities in the religions, theist, atheist, ignostic, Evolutionist, Baptist, .. they are all the same.

I told myself last year I wouldn't respond to any of your threads. I simply can't be bothered to get dragged into these ''discussions'' with you. You refuse to improve your understanding of the topics you rail against, and we have some VERY capable posters on here that have surely tried to teach you. You don't listen. You take the barest, most primitive surface understanding of theories and grossly misrepresent them after sprinkling in fantastic bits that you pull from who-knows-where.

You know my friend, the first time I ran across that quote by Henry D. Thoreau, I realized just how close it fits with how I deal with religious ideologies! I have shown you where I pull my comments from, and I learned to sum them up rather nice I think, .. they are the 'root' the ideologies originate from.
Like BB-Evolution, I read and reread where and how and what the original idea came from; Big-bang where? Big-bang what? Big-bang when? and Bingo, a few strikes at the root right there and the entire 100 year old magic-tree just falls over. Same with any religion or man made doctrines.

And this is why you guys want to get me away from the root, so I could hack at the leaves on the branches, because you know that by the time I reach the second branch, new leaves (new stories) would have grown back on the first one.

[center]There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root.
Henry D. Thoreau[/center]

And then you preach. As if by conveying the scattered ideas you hold to be truth loud and long enough, they will simply overwhelm the audience into accepting you a sage.

Brother if what I reveal to you was preaching, I would be making some big-bucks in a bunch of denomination churches. When they hear me, and see for themselves the proof both from science and the Bible, they run and hide, but would never allow me to present the real God and Jesus in their church. I mean can you imagine people coming to church to get real help, like money wise too? The poor would be flooding the place! lol. No, they ask for the poor mans last penny and send them away with big empty promises.

The most honest thing you've ever said on this site, the most worthy of respect, is that you're not well educated. That's not an easy statement to make on a site like this, but it was commendable. You ruin that honesty and that humility with the types of posts you make that immediately ignore that fact.

I said I was not schooled, .. but thanks to intelligent people like yourself, I have educated myself one post at a time.

So you think I'm not educated? If you really believed that, I doubt very much you would have said what you just said to me. But I believe that you are angry that God would choose someone like me, and make the wise (according to the world, with degrees and all) and all their wisdom as foolishness. As children's fairytales. Why else would you guys resort to comments like what you just made, the rest of your heroes and buddies are constantly doing the same.

Debate me, no name calling. Clownboat would go on for dozens of posts while Z was rewarding him tokens, and never really convinced anyone he was right and I was wrong.

In conclusion: "arian, you just refuse to be indoctrinated, .. not fare, you are redefining truth, you are pointing out absolutes when we don't believe in absolutes. Haven't you heard, "nothing is no longer nothing anymore, time is a dimension, the homo sapiens animal doesn't have a mind, only a brain, God doesn't exist!"
"Which God doesn't exist?"
"The Bible God who is the most evil of all the gods" lol, .. should I say more?

Well thanks for lowering your standards, especially breaking your promise to yourself and were kind enough to respond to me.

Anyways, if you feel like continuing this humble attitude to even talk to me, would you want to debate 'Special Relativity' with me once? Or pick a topic, but please debate it, if I'm wrong, don't just keep saying: "You're wrong arian, you are uneducated, come on admit it! Instead, can you please show me where I am wrong? But hey, sure wouldn't want you to loose respect with your buddies on the Forum, so I understand if you never talk to me again.

Thanks again, I am honored, really.

[Regens Küchl]

[Replying to post 1 by OnceConvinced]

I am more surprised that, after reading Revelation, your biggest problem is about a book!

The genre of Revelation is what scholars call apocalyptic. It employs symbols, heavily. It represents God anthropomorphically (in human guise) even though authors writing in that genre knew He was incorporeal. God does not need a book.

I verily doubt and want to challenge that autors generally thought of Yahwe as incorporeal.
Tradition and even partly modern believe saw his heavenly kingdom as looking like an earthly kingdom with the ruler on his throne.
Therefore the belief of heavenly Jerusalem - even still held on for example by the seventh day adventists.
Also I suspect the authors did not see Yahwe as that omnipotent that he could afford to not rely on books.
I suspect that believe in total omnipotence was not explicitly teached before St Augustine and the other early middle age church-fathers.

Today also Jack Chick who draws tracts that show exactly the modern baptist understanding of Yahwe makes clear that YES HE NEEDS THE BOOK.

And If Satan should ever steal or tamper it CHAOS IN HEAVEN WOULD BREAK OUT!