Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

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Regens Küchl
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Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

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Post by Regens Küchl »

The sacrosanct canonical four gospels have it in it that they avoid to narrate details about or have actual witnesses for their most miraculous and important point.

So we are to assume that in the dark cave Jesus body suddenly regained life and consciousness, stood up, unsheathed the shroud of turin leaving it right there as evidence of the miracle for the future vatican, with newfound superhuman powers opened his tomb careful not to wake up the roman guards and staying nearby did unknown things (garden work?) until he was mistaken for the gardener.

But like a three that falls over in the wood alone, no one witnessed that.
We are at last to assume that no human saw it or found it worth mentioning, for that is indicated by the whole new testament.

The apocryphal gospel of Peter is among the few, perhaps almost the only, (can anyone provide a list, please?) who narrates detailed important information (walking talking cross) about the actual resurrection and also has it witnessed by people.
"9. And in the night in which the Lord's day was drawing on, as the soldiers kept guard two by two in a watch, there was a great voice in the heaven; and they saw the heavens opened, and two men descend with a great light and approach the tomb. And the stone that was put at the door rolled of itself and made way in part; and the tomb was opened, and both the young men entered in.

10. When therefore those soldiers saw it, they awakened the centurion and the elders, for they too were close by keeping guard. And as they declared what things they had seen, again they saw three men come forth from the tomb, and two of them supporting one, and a cross following them. And the heads of the two reached to heaven, but the head of him who was led by them overpassed the heavens. And they heard a voice from the heavens, saying, You have preached to them that sleep. And a response was heard from the cross, Yes."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Peter
Now It is really funny from every possible standpoint, believer, unbeliever, mythicist, historicist, whatever that we are told of not a one actual witness.

If it was a divine happening to save humanity, then why not let humans witness the most miraculous part of it ?

If it was invented than why not invent actual witnesses too ?

A Believer could say : "Because we have to believe out of faith in the resurrection!" - But this point is moot because we would also have to take it on faith even if the gospels mentioned actual witnesses.

A Mythicist could say : "Because it makes the better drama when witnesses only meet the already risen Jesus!" - But that point is moot beause we, that grew up with this fact in the gospels, are biased that way.

Questions for Debate 1) Why no actual witnesses ?

2) Why dismiss scriptures like the gospel of Peter when it includes actual witnesses and narrates important details.

3) And that is the little brother and second funny thing about the resurrection: The running gag in the gospels about old accquintances never recognicing the risen Jesus at first look.
Mary Magdalene Mistaking him for the gardener, Cleopas and another disciple walking with him to Emmaus without knowing, Apostle Thomas only recognicing him by his wounds . . . .

Why first no actual witnesses and than no recognicing? Dont this two facts together cry aloud : "Hoax"?

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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

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brunumb wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 8:23 pm
Inquirer wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 3:53 pm There were people who witnessed Christ's miracles yet still rejected him, still wanted him executed.
Who were these people? How do we know that they actually existed as real people and were not just part of a fictional story? What if they were actually real people observing some itinerant preacher and became aware that he was just indulging in sleight of hand and other contrived magic tricks?
Because I interpret the historical data differently to you.
brunumb wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 8:23 pm
Inquirer wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 3:53 pm No matter how strong the evidence might be, prejudice is an ever present risk and will over rule evidence. If it serves someone's purpose to interpret evidence in such a way that they can dismiss it, they will, it happens all the time.
No matter how strong the evidence might be, ̶r̶e̶l̶i̶g̶i̶o̶u̶s̶ beliefs may be so strong as to prevent acceptance of the evidence. If it serves someone's purpose to interpret evidence in such a way that they can dismiss it, they will, it happens all the time. See how that works?
You mean as you do with the New Testament? yes I think I do see that.

Belief means an assumption something is true with no ability to prove it true, so what's the difference between a "religious belief" and some other kind of belief? There's no epistemological difference, regarding an unprovable claim as true is something we all do, all the time particularly in science, only in mathematics can you possibly escape that reality.

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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #522

Post by Peterlag »

[Replying to The Nice Centurion in post #520]

I read somewhere Jesus was seen by the 12 and then by about 50 others who knew him before he left. Is that not evidence?

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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #523

Post by brunumb »

Inquirer wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 12:17 pm
brunumb wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 8:23 pm
Inquirer wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 3:53 pm There were people who witnessed Christ's miracles yet still rejected him, still wanted him executed.
Who were these people? How do we know that they actually existed as real people and were not just part of a fictional story? What if they were actually real people observing some itinerant preacher and became aware that he was just indulging in sleight of hand and other contrived magic tricks?
Because I interpret the historical data differently to you.
How is that remotely an answer to what I asked? Please demonstrate that how you interpret the historical data is actually valid. Not seeing that in anything you wrote.
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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #524

Post by The Nice Centurion »

Peterlag wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 2:16 pm [Replying to The Nice Centurion in post #520]

I read somewhere Jesus was seen by the 12 and then by about 50 others who knew him before he left. Is that not evidence?
No, you omit hearsay about that somewhere you were reading hearsay about 12 and about 50 who knew him before he left.
Further the sentence makes no sense and all that is absolutely not in the bible.

Bob Gimlin and Roger Patterson in Northern California 1967 filmed Bigfoot in Color while he left!

That means Bigfoot has much better evidence!

https://www-opb-org.cdn.ampproject.org/ ... squatch%2F

Can you link me to any Youtube Video that shows Jesus actual resurrection or his flying to heaven?

No? Not even a staged movie scene or at least a cartoon?

Why no Videos for the actual resurrection, and why no detailed description by eyewitnesses who watched Jesus ascending to heaven?

Worse: If no one saw Jesus ascend to heaven how than can anyone know he ascended to heaven ?
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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #525

Post by Peterlag »

[Replying to The Nice Centurion in post #524]

My mistake. Not 50 but 500. Here's the verses...

1 Corinthians 15:4-8

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #526

Post by The Nice Centurion »

[Replying to Peterlag in post #525]
I know! Still you proved my point. If even your hearsay got blurried by silent post or bad memory, than why should anyones, even Pauls, hearsay be better?

Further, if Jesus wore his unrecognizable new ressurection-body, what did those witnesses really see?

Poor witnesses for nothing. They only witnessed at best some new christ-copycat who not even would let them witness his actual resurrection or ascension.

No wonder he didnt appear to Pilate. Pilate would have made this to him unknown man into his court Jester.
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For if he had been, the Angel Moroni never would have taken the risk of enthrusting him with the Golden Plates❗"

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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #527

Post by The Nice Centurion »

Inquirer wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 2:46 pm
The Nice Centurion wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 12:06 pm
Inquirer wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 11:33 am I'm tempted to respond to this with "because it doesn't matter". A person "witnessing" the resurrection would not add anything of spiritual value.
Keep your spiritual value! I 'm asking for witnesses!
Inquirer wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 11:33 am Could a detailed observation and narration of the process of resurrecting settle arguments as to whether such a process took place or not?
It would be absolutely interesting, and really helpful!
Inquirer wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 11:33 am Additionally these events took place at a time in history that long predates the scientific revolution, so the relevance of what would arguably be a scientific account has to be questioned here.
No, it is far better scientifical proof only to play appear and vanish again for cultists begging to see proof for a miracle! *BARF*
Inquirer wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 11:33 am The proof of resurrection is not found in some analysis of the exact sequence of events that one might have observed inside the tomb, but in the fact that a dead person is now alive, walking and talking.

If you saw me executed, clearly and undeniably dead and then later saw me alive, walking and talking with you, would you reject that evidence because the exact process was unknown, unobserved, unrecorded?

Everyone who saw Christ executed, dead and later saw him alive is a witness to the resurrection so far as I can see things anyway.
Of course!
I would call foul, because thats the cheapest oldest stage trick cliche ever!

Its always the same. For example: The audience sees a stage magician entering a box, and after a little wile "the magician" leaves the box transformed into a sweet PENGUIN !
OF COURSE, NO ONE EVER sees the man actually transform into this penguin, even though THAT WOULD BE THE MOST INTERESTING PART TO WATCH!

I wonder why thats so? Awww-it couldnt be all a trick, could it?

But if James Randy, Richard Dawkins and Richard Carrier had been invited to enter stage to look into the box while the magician transforms AND THEY WOULD SWEAR THEY SAW THE MAN WONDROUSLY TRANSFORM INTO A POLAR BIRD, things would be different.

Even more if they wrote it down in their books, they all would describe the same astonishing experience in detail, trying to find explanations and some time would pass without the trio calling it all out as conspirative psychological experiment on people.
That is a challenge I agree, a spectacular event takes place 2,000 years ago and people strive to create some written record of it, what else could they do? I don't think it would materially help at all if their account said something like "and the room glowed and the dead body turned to smoke and filled the room, then the smoke cleared and our Lord was standing there looking at me" (for example), are you really saying you'd believe it more? like you'd react "Oh OK, then yes, that makes more sense, I believe it now"?

No, nothing could have been written beyond what was written that could convince a skeptic.
Now we are getting somewhere.
If no one saw the ressurrection and the god who made it happen boasts to be omnipotent then it would be a waste of his time to perform anything at all!

Oh, and why would an omnipotent god send angels to remove a stone? Is omnipotend god too weak to simptly omnipotently will the stone ot out of existence?

Jesus he would not need to resurrect the hard way. Just will him alive and outside the tomb faster than ligtning. End of story.

Its silly to give him a new body so he cannot even prove he is the same person while everybody is supposed to believe in the resurrection, but hey - An omnipotent god does everything to espape the clutches of Pilate, right?
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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #528

Post by Peterlag »

The Nice Centurion wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 7:10 pm [Replying to Peterlag in post #525]
I know! Still you proved my point. If even your hearsay got blurried by silent post or bad memory, than why should anyones, even Pauls, hearsay be better?

Further, if Jesus wore his unrecognizable new ressurection-body, what did those witnesses really see?

Poor witnesses for nothing. They only witnessed at best some new christ-copycat who not even would let them witness his actual resurrection or ascension.

No wonder he didnt appear to Pilate. Pilate would have made this to him unknown man into his court Jester.
Now there are a few things that I know 100 percent for sure and one of them is this. There was no human on the face of this planet that could or would try to make the resurrected Christ into their Jester. This is one thing I know for sure.

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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #529

Post by Tcg »

The Nice Centurion wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 10:43 am
Why no Videos for the actual resurrection...?
Video technology wasn't developed until the 20th century. Jesus supposedly resurrected in the 1st. Just a hunch, but that may explain it.


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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

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Post by The Nice Centurion »

Peterlag wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 11:24 pm
The Nice Centurion wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 7:10 pm [Replying to Peterlag in post #525]
I know! Still you proved my point. If even your hearsay got blurried by silent post or bad memory, than why should anyones, even Pauls, hearsay be better?

Further, if Jesus wore his unrecognizable new ressurection-body, what did those witnesses really see?

Poor witnesses for nothing. They only witnessed at best some new christ-copycat who not even would let them witness his actual resurrection or ascension.

No wonder he didnt appear to Pilate. Pilate would have made this to him unknown man into his court Jester.
Now there are a few things that I know 100 percent for sure and one of them is this. There was no human on the face of this planet that could or would try to make the resurrected Christ into their Jester. This is one thing I know for sure.
You cannot know this either. You are only pretending to know!

First Christ said:
"Oooh - I am resurrecting, but I let no one watch! For that wouldn make sceptics believe! Or would it force everyone to believe and rob their free will of having faith?"

Then Christ said:
"Wow - I have resurrected in a glorious new body. The angels fed my old body to the dogs. How then it was a resurrection? Ask Richard Carrier! I dont know myself! I am not intelligent enough to know such complicated things. But worship me !!! Love me or I drag you to hell!
I bring the good news! The good news is that I am your savior! I will save you from myself if you give me praise!"

And then Christ said:
"I, the almighty and loving savior who loves to drag people to eternal hell better hide from ol' Pontius Pilate. Someone told him what I said and now he wants to make me his court jester for reasons unknown to me. Now I want to give a little scare to the emmausgang like I did to the tombwomen. Then I will let St Thomas put his finger in my hole and than I will appear to 500 in my new holy body. That will be something, The 500 will trampling over each other, while very few will get a good look. Aaand finally I will ascent to heaven, but again with no one peeking! You hear?"

Perfect court jester or not?
“If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. But if you drown a man in a fish pond, he will never have to go hungry again🐟

"Only Experts in Reformed Egyptian should be allowed to critique the Book of Mormon❗"

"Joseph Smith can't possibly have been a deceiver.
For if he had been, the Angel Moroni never would have taken the risk of enthrusting him with the Golden Plates❗"

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