Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

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Regens Küchl
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Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #1

Post by Regens Küchl »

The sacrosanct canonical four gospels have it in it that they avoid to narrate details about or have actual witnesses for their most miraculous and important point.

So we are to assume that in the dark cave Jesus body suddenly regained life and consciousness, stood up, unsheathed the shroud of turin leaving it right there as evidence of the miracle for the future vatican, with newfound superhuman powers opened his tomb careful not to wake up the roman guards and staying nearby did unknown things (garden work?) until he was mistaken for the gardener.

But like a three that falls over in the wood alone, no one witnessed that.
We are at last to assume that no human saw it or found it worth mentioning, for that is indicated by the whole new testament.

The apocryphal gospel of Peter is among the few, perhaps almost the only, (can anyone provide a list, please?) who narrates detailed important information (walking talking cross) about the actual resurrection and also has it witnessed by people.
"9. And in the night in which the Lord's day was drawing on, as the soldiers kept guard two by two in a watch, there was a great voice in the heaven; and they saw the heavens opened, and two men descend with a great light and approach the tomb. And the stone that was put at the door rolled of itself and made way in part; and the tomb was opened, and both the young men entered in.

10. When therefore those soldiers saw it, they awakened the centurion and the elders, for they too were close by keeping guard. And as they declared what things they had seen, again they saw three men come forth from the tomb, and two of them supporting one, and a cross following them. And the heads of the two reached to heaven, but the head of him who was led by them overpassed the heavens. And they heard a voice from the heavens, saying, You have preached to them that sleep. And a response was heard from the cross, Yes."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Peter
Now It is really funny from every possible standpoint, believer, unbeliever, mythicist, historicist, whatever that we are told of not a one actual witness.

If it was a divine happening to save humanity, then why not let humans witness the most miraculous part of it ?

If it was invented than why not invent actual witnesses too ?

A Believer could say : "Because we have to believe out of faith in the resurrection!" - But this point is moot because we would also have to take it on faith even if the gospels mentioned actual witnesses.

A Mythicist could say : "Because it makes the better drama when witnesses only meet the already risen Jesus!" - But that point is moot beause we, that grew up with this fact in the gospels, are biased that way.

Questions for Debate 1) Why no actual witnesses ?

2) Why dismiss scriptures like the gospel of Peter when it includes actual witnesses and narrates important details.

3) And that is the little brother and second funny thing about the resurrection: The running gag in the gospels about old accquintances never recognicing the risen Jesus at first look.
Mary Magdalene Mistaking him for the gardener, Cleopas and another disciple walking with him to Emmaus without knowing, Apostle Thomas only recognicing him by his wounds . . . .

Why first no actual witnesses and than no recognicing? Dont this two facts together cry aloud : "Hoax"?

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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #541

Post by Tcg »

Peterlag wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:02 am
The Nice Centurion wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 11:22 pm
Peterlag wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 7:10 pm
Tcg wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 5:51 pm
Peterlag wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:26 pm
I don't think Christ or I care one way or the other if Skeptics believe.
I see nowhere in Scripture where people are dragged to hell. Catholics teach that.
Salvation is available for those who want it. They don't need to convince anybody.
There is this:
Matthew 13:40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
I'm not sure being thrown into a fiery furnace is very different than being dragged to hell.


Tcg
Can you give me one from the Epistles?
Why are you dodging the question, while implying the gospels are not good enough for you?

How about commenting above gospel verse, and than talk about epistles?
It's not dodging. I'm just smart enough to know that what is spoken in the gospels was for Israel and not the body of Christ. So I figure it does not apply to Christians if it's not in the epistles.
Even if this assertion were valid, it is irrelevant. You asked for an example from scripture, and I provided it. How often are you going to attempt to move the goalposts?


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

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Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

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I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #542

Post by Peterlag »

Tcg wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:20 am
Peterlag wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:02 am
The Nice Centurion wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 11:22 pm
Peterlag wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 7:10 pm
Tcg wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 5:51 pm
Peterlag wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:26 pm
I don't think Christ or I care one way or the other if Skeptics believe.
I see nowhere in Scripture where people are dragged to hell. Catholics teach that.
Salvation is available for those who want it. They don't need to convince anybody.
There is this:
Matthew 13:40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
I'm not sure being thrown into a fiery furnace is very different than being dragged to hell.


Tcg
Can you give me one from the Epistles?
Why are you dodging the question, while implying the gospels are not good enough for you?

How about commenting above gospel verse, and than talk about epistles?
It's not dodging. I'm just smart enough to know that what is spoken in the gospels was for Israel and not the body of Christ. So I figure it does not apply to Christians if it's not in the epistles.
Even if this assertion were valid, it is irrelevant. You asked for an example from scripture, and I provided it. How often are you going to attempt to move the goalposts?


Tcg
Since I have been into this Bible so long I often say stuff like "Romans says" and then I realize the person who might be new to the Bible may not know what I'm talking about so I have started to say "In the book of Romans" and so it is with Scripture. I just assume that Scripture means that which is addressed to the Christians since I'm not Jewish and therefore don't look at the Old Testament.

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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #543

Post by Tcg »

Peterlag wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:07 am
Tcg wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:20 am
Peterlag wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:02 am
The Nice Centurion wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 11:22 pm
Peterlag wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 7:10 pm
Tcg wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 5:51 pm
Peterlag wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:26 pm
I don't think Christ or I care one way or the other if Skeptics believe.
I see nowhere in Scripture where people are dragged to hell. Catholics teach that.
Salvation is available for those who want it. They don't need to convince anybody.
There is this:
Matthew 13:40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
I'm not sure being thrown into a fiery furnace is very different than being dragged to hell.


Tcg
Can you give me one from the Epistles?
Why are you dodging the question, while implying the gospels are not good enough for you?

How about commenting above gospel verse, and than talk about epistles?
It's not dodging. I'm just smart enough to know that what is spoken in the gospels was for Israel and not the body of Christ. So I figure it does not apply to Christians if it's not in the epistles.
Even if this assertion were valid, it is irrelevant. You asked for an example from scripture, and I provided it. How often are you going to attempt to move the goalposts?


Tcg
Since I have been into this Bible so long I often say stuff like "Romans says" and then I realize the person who might be new to the Bible may not know what I'm talking about so I have started to say "In the book of Romans" and so it is with Scripture. I just assume that Scripture means that which is addressed to the Christians since I'm not Jewish and therefore don't look at the Old Testament.
I'm far from new to the Bible. Scripture means the whole of the Bible. You don't read the O.T.? How do you understand the numerous references in the N.T. to the O.T.?

Beyond this, the claim of yours which we are discussing didn't start with, "In the epistles." It referenced the "Scriptures."


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #544

Post by Peterlag »

Tcg wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:14 am
Peterlag wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:07 am
Tcg wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:20 am
Peterlag wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:02 am
The Nice Centurion wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 11:22 pm
Peterlag wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 7:10 pm
Tcg wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 5:51 pm
Peterlag wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:26 pm
I don't think Christ or I care one way or the other if Skeptics believe.
I see nowhere in Scripture where people are dragged to hell. Catholics teach that.
Salvation is available for those who want it. They don't need to convince anybody.
There is this:
Matthew 13:40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
I'm not sure being thrown into a fiery furnace is very different than being dragged to hell.


Tcg
Can you give me one from the Epistles?
Why are you dodging the question, while implying the gospels are not good enough for you?

How about commenting above gospel verse, and than talk about epistles?
It's not dodging. I'm just smart enough to know that what is spoken in the gospels was for Israel and not the body of Christ. So I figure it does not apply to Christians if it's not in the epistles.
Even if this assertion were valid, it is irrelevant. You asked for an example from scripture, and I provided it. How often are you going to attempt to move the goalposts?


Tcg
Since I have been into this Bible so long I often say stuff like "Romans says" and then I realize the person who might be new to the Bible may not know what I'm talking about so I have started to say "In the book of Romans" and so it is with Scripture. I just assume that Scripture means that which is addressed to the Christians since I'm not Jewish and therefore don't look at the Old Testament.
I'm far from new to the Bible. Scripture means the whole of the Bible. You don't read the O.T.? How do you understand the numerous references in the N.T. to the O.T.?

Beyond this, the claim of yours which we are discussing didn't start with, "In the epistles." It referenced the "Scriptures."


Tcg
I'm just saying your right. I said Scripture but I meant the New Testament of the Christian Bible. I don't look at the Old Covenant since I don't believe it applies to the Christian.

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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #545

Post by The Nice Centurion »

Tcg wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:14 am
Peterlag wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:07 am
Tcg wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:20 am
Peterlag wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:02 am
The Nice Centurion wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 11:22 pm
Peterlag wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 7:10 pm
Tcg wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 5:51 pm
Peterlag wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:26 pm
I don't think Christ or I care one way or the other if Skeptics believe.
I see nowhere in Scripture where people are dragged to hell. Catholics teach that.
Salvation is available for those who want it. They don't need to convince anybody.
There is this:
Matthew 13:40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
I'm not sure being thrown into a fiery furnace is very different than being dragged to hell.


Tcg
Can you give me one from the Epistles?
Why are you dodging the question, while implying the gospels are not good enough for you?

How about commenting above gospel verse, and than talk about epistles?
It's not dodging. I'm just smart enough to know that what is spoken in the gospels was for Israel and not the body of Christ. So I figure it does not apply to Christians if it's not in the epistles.
Even if this assertion were valid, it is irrelevant. You asked for an example from scripture, and I provided it. How often are you going to attempt to move the goalposts?


Tcg
Since I have been into this Bible so long I often say stuff like "Romans says" and then I realize the person who might be new to the Bible may not know what I'm talking about so I have started to say "In the book of Romans" and so it is with Scripture. I just assume that Scripture means that which is addressed to the Christians since I'm not Jewish and therefore don't look at the Old Testament.
I'm far from new to the Bible. Scripture means the whole of the Bible. You don't read the O.T.? How do you understand the numerous references in the N.T. to the O.T.?

Beyond this, the claim of yours which we are discussing didn't start with, "In the epistles." It referenced the "Scriptures."


Tcg
I dont want to spoil anyones day here, but if one was into this bible so long oughtnt he to know that the gospels are . . . yes, yes, yes, in the NT !?
“If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. But if you drown a man in a fish pond, he will never have to go hungry again🐟

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For if he had been, the Angel Moroni never would have taken the risk of enthrusting him with the Golden Plates❗"

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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #546

Post by Tcg »

Peterlag wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:20 am
Tcg wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:14 am
Peterlag wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:07 am
Tcg wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:20 am
Peterlag wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:02 am
The Nice Centurion wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 11:22 pm
Peterlag wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 7:10 pm
Tcg wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 5:51 pm
Peterlag wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:26 pm
I don't think Christ or I care one way or the other if Skeptics believe.
I see nowhere in Scripture where people are dragged to hell. Catholics teach that.
Salvation is available for those who want it. They don't need to convince anybody.
There is this:
Matthew 13:40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
I'm not sure being thrown into a fiery furnace is very different than being dragged to hell.


Tcg
Can you give me one from the Epistles?
Why are you dodging the question, while implying the gospels are not good enough for you?

How about commenting above gospel verse, and than talk about epistles?
It's not dodging. I'm just smart enough to know that what is spoken in the gospels was for Israel and not the body of Christ. So I figure it does not apply to Christians if it's not in the epistles.
Even if this assertion were valid, it is irrelevant. You asked for an example from scripture, and I provided it. How often are you going to attempt to move the goalposts?


Tcg
Since I have been into this Bible so long I often say stuff like "Romans says" and then I realize the person who might be new to the Bible may not know what I'm talking about so I have started to say "In the book of Romans" and so it is with Scripture. I just assume that Scripture means that which is addressed to the Christians since I'm not Jewish and therefore don't look at the Old Testament.
I'm far from new to the Bible. Scripture means the whole of the Bible. You don't read the O.T.? How do you understand the numerous references in the N.T. to the O.T.?

Beyond this, the claim of yours which we are discussing didn't start with, "In the epistles." It referenced the "Scriptures."


Tcg
I'm just saying your right. I said Scripture but I meant the New Testament of the Christian Bible. I don't look at the Old Covenant since I don't believe it applies to the Christian.
The quote I provided was from the N.T. of the Christian Bible so the distinction you are trying to make changes nothing.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #547

Post by Clownboat »

Peterlag wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:26 pm I don't think Christ or I care one way or the other if Skeptics believe.
This is painfully obvious.
Could you imgine making claims about talking animals or living in a fish/whale for days (for a couple examples), yet also carring about what others thought of such beliefs?
You have to not care that you believe in talking animals, Eden, an ark and on and on (children might be an exception).
I see nowhere in Scripture where people are dragged to hell. Catholics teach that.
Unfortunetaly, the Bible is not clear enought to do away with such contradictions. Skeptics note this, but I suggest you take the 'I don't care' position and continue on your merry way.
Salvation is available for those who want it.

How is this salvation obtained?
They don't need to convince anybody.
This doesn't make sense. Surely a person would need to be convinced before they would accept a belief. Why would religions be any different?
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #548

Post by Peterlag »

Tcg wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:25 am
Peterlag wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:20 am
Tcg wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:14 am
Peterlag wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:07 am
Tcg wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:20 am
Peterlag wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:02 am
The Nice Centurion wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 11:22 pm
Peterlag wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 7:10 pm
Tcg wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 5:51 pm
Peterlag wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:26 pm
I don't think Christ or I care one way or the other if Skeptics believe.
I see nowhere in Scripture where people are dragged to hell. Catholics teach that.
Salvation is available for those who want it. They don't need to convince anybody.
There is this:
Matthew 13:40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
I'm not sure being thrown into a fiery furnace is very different than being dragged to hell.


Tcg
Can you give me one from the Epistles?
Why are you dodging the question, while implying the gospels are not good enough for you?

How about commenting above gospel verse, and than talk about epistles?
It's not dodging. I'm just smart enough to know that what is spoken in the gospels was for Israel and not the body of Christ. So I figure it does not apply to Christians if it's not in the epistles.
Even if this assertion were valid, it is irrelevant. You asked for an example from scripture, and I provided it. How often are you going to attempt to move the goalposts?


Tcg
Since I have been into this Bible so long I often say stuff like "Romans says" and then I realize the person who might be new to the Bible may not know what I'm talking about so I have started to say "In the book of Romans" and so it is with Scripture. I just assume that Scripture means that which is addressed to the Christians since I'm not Jewish and therefore don't look at the Old Testament.
I'm far from new to the Bible. Scripture means the whole of the Bible. You don't read the O.T.? How do you understand the numerous references in the N.T. to the O.T.?

Beyond this, the claim of yours which we are discussing didn't start with, "In the epistles." It referenced the "Scriptures."


Tcg
I'm just saying your right. I said Scripture but I meant the New Testament of the Christian Bible. I don't look at the Old Covenant since I don't believe it applies to the Christian.
The quote I provided was from the N.T. of the Christian Bible so the distinction you are trying to make changes nothing.


Tcg
Oh no I don't see Matthew, Mark, Luke and John as New Testament and this is not rare. I have even been in local churches and have heard preachers say that God did not put that blank paper that just says New Testament between Malachi and Matthew. The New Covenant started when Christ sent the new birth in Acts.

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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #549

Post by Peterlag »

Clownboat wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 11:02 am
Peterlag wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:26 pm I don't think Christ or I care one way or the other if Skeptics believe.
This is painfully obvious.
Could you imgine making claims about talking animals or living in a fish/whale for days (for a couple examples), yet also carring about what others thought of such beliefs?
You have to not care that you believe in talking animals, Eden, an ark and on and on (children might be an exception).
I see nowhere in Scripture where people are dragged to hell. Catholics teach that.
Unfortunetaly, the Bible is not clear enought to do away with such contradictions. Skeptics note this, but I suggest you take the 'I don't care' position and continue on your merry way.
Salvation is available for those who want it.

How is this salvation obtained?
They don't need to convince anybody.
This doesn't make sense. Surely a person would need to be convinced before they would accept a belief. Why would religions be any different?
I have spent most of my life searching the scriptures so I can share it with people. But I don't have to beg people to believe it. That's all I'm saying. You make me out to be a cold uncaring person. I'm just saying Christians don't have to twist arms and beg to convince or drag the unbeliever across the finish line. You put the Word in front of people and it's between them and God if they want to believe it. I don't care which way people go because it's not my job to talk people into it who have the right to make up their own minds.

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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #550

Post by The Nice Centurion »

Peterlag wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 11:55 am I have spent most of my life searching the scriptures
I know what you mean. You own so many books that you never know which is where and spend more time searching for, than reading it. Thats unfortunate.
How about always keeping the scriptures at the same special place on your bookboard. Always return them exact there after reading. So you will not have to spend more lost time searching the scriptures.
Peterlag wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 11:55 am so I can share it with people. But I don't have to beg people to believe it. That's all I'm saying. You make me out to be a cold uncaring person. I'm just saying Christians don't have to twist arms and beg to convince or drag the unbeliever across the finish line.
You should have told that to the christians in the middle ages. Christians commonly did twist arms, limbs, fingers, tortured to death, crippled and burned alive unbelievers and potential unbelievers.
But the christians did succed to drag most unbelievers across the finish line. Praise and glory!
Peterlag wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 11:55 am You put the Word in front of people and it's between them and God if they want to believe it. I don't care which way people go because it's not my job to talk people into it who have the right to make up their own minds.
Thats no way to get anyone across the finish line!
And Jesus never teached this weak approach!
Try harder, man of god!
“If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. But if you drown a man in a fish pond, he will never have to go hungry again🐟

"Only Experts in Reformed Egyptian should be allowed to critique the Book of Mormon❗"

"Joseph Smith can't possibly have been a deceiver.
For if he had been, the Angel Moroni never would have taken the risk of enthrusting him with the Golden Plates❗"

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