Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

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Regens Küchl
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Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

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Post by Regens Küchl »

The sacrosanct canonical four gospels have it in it that they avoid to narrate details about or have actual witnesses for their most miraculous and important point.

So we are to assume that in the dark cave Jesus body suddenly regained life and consciousness, stood up, unsheathed the shroud of turin leaving it right there as evidence of the miracle for the future vatican, with newfound superhuman powers opened his tomb careful not to wake up the roman guards and staying nearby did unknown things (garden work?) until he was mistaken for the gardener.

But like a three that falls over in the wood alone, no one witnessed that.
We are at last to assume that no human saw it or found it worth mentioning, for that is indicated by the whole new testament.

The apocryphal gospel of Peter is among the few, perhaps almost the only, (can anyone provide a list, please?) who narrates detailed important information (walking talking cross) about the actual resurrection and also has it witnessed by people.
"9. And in the night in which the Lord's day was drawing on, as the soldiers kept guard two by two in a watch, there was a great voice in the heaven; and they saw the heavens opened, and two men descend with a great light and approach the tomb. And the stone that was put at the door rolled of itself and made way in part; and the tomb was opened, and both the young men entered in.

10. When therefore those soldiers saw it, they awakened the centurion and the elders, for they too were close by keeping guard. And as they declared what things they had seen, again they saw three men come forth from the tomb, and two of them supporting one, and a cross following them. And the heads of the two reached to heaven, but the head of him who was led by them overpassed the heavens. And they heard a voice from the heavens, saying, You have preached to them that sleep. And a response was heard from the cross, Yes."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Peter
Now It is really funny from every possible standpoint, believer, unbeliever, mythicist, historicist, whatever that we are told of not a one actual witness.

If it was a divine happening to save humanity, then why not let humans witness the most miraculous part of it ?

If it was invented than why not invent actual witnesses too ?

A Believer could say : "Because we have to believe out of faith in the resurrection!" - But this point is moot because we would also have to take it on faith even if the gospels mentioned actual witnesses.

A Mythicist could say : "Because it makes the better drama when witnesses only meet the already risen Jesus!" - But that point is moot beause we, that grew up with this fact in the gospels, are biased that way.

Questions for Debate 1) Why no actual witnesses ?

2) Why dismiss scriptures like the gospel of Peter when it includes actual witnesses and narrates important details.

3) And that is the little brother and second funny thing about the resurrection: The running gag in the gospels about old accquintances never recognicing the risen Jesus at first look.
Mary Magdalene Mistaking him for the gardener, Cleopas and another disciple walking with him to Emmaus without knowing, Apostle Thomas only recognicing him by his wounds . . . .

Why first no actual witnesses and than no recognicing? Dont this two facts together cry aloud : "Hoax"?

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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #581

Post by Clownboat »

The Nice Centurion wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 11:06 am
Clownboat wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 9:59 am
brunumb wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:18 pm
TRANSPONDER wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 10:37 am Aside from coming down Himself, just one person in the tomb to see Jesus recover and stand up would be better than an empty tomb and therefore, we are supposed to leap to a conclusion.
Given that the resurrection is the linchpin of Christianity, you'd think that Yahweh/Jehovah/God would have made the event at least a bit more spectacular. A host of angel descending on the tomb in glowing light attracting a huge crowd. The stone miraculously rolling itself away. The resurrected Jesus emerging in all his glory to the amazement of the multitude. Free bread and fish for all.
Instead, what we get is the very real possibility that the disciples took the body, loaded it with spices for a journey to Galilee where a logical resting place would have been.
Oh hum.
Impossible, for William Lane Craig says that the evil Sanhedrin, who were a buch of Satan worshippers, did everything to keep secret that Jesus was Christ and also placed three Centurions to guard the tomb.
(Their cohorts got a free day.)

And also then Jesus would logically have resurrected on the Journey or on his logical resting place.
Not impossible if the guards were place at an already empty tomb.

I don't understand the logic in your logic sentence. Sorry.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #582

Post by The Nice Centurion »

Clownboat wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 12:13 pm
The Nice Centurion wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 11:06 am
Clownboat wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 9:59 am
brunumb wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:18 pm
TRANSPONDER wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 10:37 am Aside from coming down Himself, just one person in the tomb to see Jesus recover and stand up would be better than an empty tomb and therefore, we are supposed to leap to a conclusion.
Given that the resurrection is the linchpin of Christianity, you'd think that Yahweh/Jehovah/God would have made the event at least a bit more spectacular. A host of angel descending on the tomb in glowing light attracting a huge crowd. The stone miraculously rolling itself away. The resurrected Jesus emerging in all his glory to the amazement of the multitude. Free bread and fish for all.
Instead, what we get is the very real possibility that the disciples took the body, loaded it with spices for a journey to Galilee where a logical resting place would have been.
Oh hum.
Impossible, for William Lane Craig says that the evil Sanhedrin, who were a buch of Satan worshippers, did everything to keep secret that Jesus was Christ and also placed three Centurions to guard the tomb.
(Their cohorts got a free day.)

And also then Jesus would logically have resurrected on the Journey or on his logical resting place.
Not impossible if the guards were place at an already empty tomb.

I don't understand the logic in your logic sentence. Sorry.
Or perhaps Jesus resurrected just in time exactly to sneak out of the empty tomb when the roman guards arrived. So he murdered one of the romans and put on his armor and helmet. Then he played a guard until the romans were called off.
(The other roman guards fell for that all because te were no christians and therefore of course absolute fools! Hollywood bible movies teach us that only christians ever could think reasonably. People like Julius Caesar and Alexander the great must have been closet christians or else they couldnt have conquered so much!)

Or another possibility: Some graverobbers s atched the body. When they carried him off, Jesus began to cry: UNHAND ME, YOU UNSAVED SINNERS. I WILL EXCOMMUNICATE YOU FROM THE HOLY ROMAN CHURCH. I AM ABOUT TO GLORIOUSLY RESURRECT!

And the graverobbers said: " How about you leave that resurrection of yours to another son of god. Now ye play possum a little while more and you get half the money the mad doctor Luke pays us for human bodys."

And Jesus answered them: WHAT? POSTPHONE MY GLORIOUS RESURRECTION? YOU DARE? WERE YOU EVEN BAPTIZED AS INFANTS BY THE HOLY ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH? THE CHURCH I MYSELF CREATED?

And the Master graverobber spocke: "That resurrection pandemic is a commom sickness these days. Yesterday all the Jerusalem Saints resurrected. The Daughter of Jauros and that Lazarus resurrected. It puts us honest graverobbers out ow work. Now lets stuff this messianic nuisance back into his empty tomb. We will steal ourselves the next son of god. They come a dime a dozen here in the holy land."

So the graveroppers brought Jesus back and encountered the roman guards: "Hey are you the roman guards whom the evil sanhedrin put here because they fear that the apostles steal the body and claim he resurrected? See, we stole the body for Dr. Luke and he wont stop to resurrect. So we wanted to ask you zo zake him back. If we offer Dr. Luke a resurrected Christ, he will throw him out of the window or after us."

Roman Guard: "You can put him back in if you must. But I fear we cant give you in exchange a non resurrecting christ. We have a bakers dozen resurrecting Christs today. But no swooning Christ. All our swooning Christs have their Free Weekend. They went all home to their holy familys to celebrate easter!"
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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #583

Post by TRANSPONDER »

[Replying to The Nice Centurion in post #582]

:D That's a better story than mine.

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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #584

Post by christian001 »

We have evidence that Jesus died and evidence that he resurrected. https://www.explainchristianity.com/4-p ... or-christ/

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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #585

Post by Tcg »

christian001 wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 12:01 pm We have evidence that Jesus died and evidence that he resurrected. https://www.explainchristianity.com/4-p ... or-christ/
That doesn't answer the question the O.P asks which is, "Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection?" Besides which, you've not provided what you claim is evidence for the resurrection. A reference to some website is not evidence.


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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #586

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Yes; the OP was posing a question of why, if God set this whole thing up, he didn't have it absolutely done in front of the disciples, tomb guards and even the Sanhedrin because there for sure would be no doubts or excuses.

Not that I am in much doubt myself - it didn't happen. Because if it did, the appearances of the risen Jesus would have been the climax of the story, agreed by all four (as the agree the crucifixion more or less and even that Jesus resurrected in some unclear way), but we have three contradictory tales and a lack of one in Mark.

it would be inevitable that w would drift off why God didn't arrange a scene that everyone saw onto evidence for the resurrection that (it has been claimed) would stand up in court. If this becomes the debate, we have a thread or two that could be bumped...and now excuse me folks....time for me to join in a regular livestream.

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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #587

Post by The Nice Centurion »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:44 pm
The Nice Centurion wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 8:42 am So if Christ had a glorios new body, how could anyone recognize him.

According to Tombgirls and Emmausgang they already had hard time to do so without him insisting who he was.
They were kept from recognizing him.
Did his glorious New body look like Elvis or like Adolph Hitler???


We_Are_VENOM wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:44 pm
The Nice Centurion wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 8:42 am
An the new body came without Mutant Power for doing Miracles?
Read the Gospels. Jesus performed miracles post-resurrection.
Hey, whatever happened to the old Body?
Who cares.
Reliqui-hunters, the evil Sanhedrin, Pilate, anthropologists, satanists, the Roman tombguards and Most People in this Forum.

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:44 pm
The Nice Centurion wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 8:42 am
Dont say the apostles stole that!
Ok.
For What Would they have done With two Masters? Inspect the wounds of the Old Body If they resembled the wounds of the glorious New?
“If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. But if you drown a man in a fish pond, he will never have to go hungry again🐟

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"Joseph Smith can't possibly have been a deceiver.
For if he had been, the Angel Moroni never would have taken the risk of enthrusting him with the Golden Plates❗"

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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #588

Post by The Nice Centurion »

christian001 wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 12:01 pm We have evidence that Jesus died and evidence that he resurrected. https://www.explainchristianity.com/4-p ... or-christ/
This user ALMOST ALWAYS "debates" with links!
This are all his posts:
search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&author_id=15704
“If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. But if you drown a man in a fish pond, he will never have to go hungry again🐟

"Only Experts in Reformed Egyptian should be allowed to critique the Book of Mormon❗"

"Joseph Smith can't possibly have been a deceiver.
For if he had been, the Angel Moroni never would have taken the risk of enthrusting him with the Golden Plates❗"

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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #589

Post by TRANSPONDER »

The Nice Centurion wrote: Mon Aug 21, 2023 8:45 pm
christian001 wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 12:01 pm We have evidence that Jesus died and evidence that he resurrected. https://www.explainchristianity.com/4-p ... or-christ/
This user ALMOST ALWAYS "debates" with links!
This are all his posts:
search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&author_id=15704
Quite so, and even if the case was laid out in post, I doubt that it would be worth reading, since I've seen Strobel's argument before. In fact I cite it as axiomatic bad argument. Not so much the argument in itself, which others also argue, the empty tomb (which is a debate I'm rather partial to just now O:) ), common accounts, the disciples would not die for a lie, the success of Christianity too, as I recall, but the claim made in a couple of his apologetics that this was the result of impartial investigation into the argument by himself when he was an atheist.

But - and Strobel is not the only one to do this - we only hear the Biblical side. We never hear the doubts and questions an unbeliever would have asked, or the Bible - critical case. We never hear it. The Axiom is - ex atheists apparently forgot everything they knew as atheists. Of course, the tabula rasa atheist who is a fair mark for conversion, might not know the Other side, but Strobel and the like of that Ilk ought to know and be honest that they have no interest in presenting the skeptic side of the case.

Of course (said he with martyred expression and upturned eyes) if anyone wants to put his points, they will be responded to, but we are disinclined to respond to those who toss Biblical propaganda at us and expect us to research it for them.

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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #590

Post by The Nice Centurion »

The Nice Centurion wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:07 am
Tcg wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:24 am [Replying to The Nice Centurion in post #571]

I'm a bit lost here. Are you suggesting the 3,000 or 5,000 (I forget the numbers from the stories) people didn't know that Jesus performed a miracle to feed them? What about Mary and Martha who most certainly were aware of their brother's resurrection. Jesus healing the blind man on the Sabbath which so upset the Pharisees? And Mary had a public conversation with her son before he reportedly created wine from water. Are we to suspect no one else heard that conversation? Jesus reportedly performed many public miracles. Oh, and the reattachment of the ear Peter cut off. Did people close their eyes when that happened?


Tcg
I is not the first time I recognice that it happens you dont really read posts before answering them. My above quote from Robert Price answers most your questions, so you neednt get confused.

"Lukes" ear? Translation problem! I'm all ears for your argument. Nighty night! Too dark to see a miracle.
Word could also mean ear was hurt. So Jesus stilled the blood. Oh great miracle!
There are two Jesus magically feeding crowd wonders in the Gospels and they indicate that the fed guests were only aware to get fed.
That it was miraculous fish, the crowd was unaware of.

The resurrection of Lazarus (only found worth to mention by John) was seen by close relatives Maria and Martha who easily mght have been in on the Hoax.

Jesus made himself sparse to nonexistent when it came to public miracles.

If only he would have been more like Benny Hinn.
“If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. But if you drown a man in a fish pond, he will never have to go hungry again🐟

"Only Experts in Reformed Egyptian should be allowed to critique the Book of Mormon❗"

"Joseph Smith can't possibly have been a deceiver.
For if he had been, the Angel Moroni never would have taken the risk of enthrusting him with the Golden Plates❗"

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