Choose your battles wisely

[puddleglum]

In the past Christianity has had a strong influence on American culture. That influence has grown much weaker and that fact is reflected in our laws.

Because humans are created in God’s image human life should be protected. Today abortion is legal and there is a movement to legalize suicide by the terminally ill.

God established marriage as a permanent union between a man and a woman. Almost all states have no fault divorce laws which make it easy to end a marriage and many of them allow marriage between two members of the same sex.

If the United States persists in these sins we will inevitably face God’s judgment. Christians have an obligation to do all we can to change the direction our country is going. The primary tool for doing this is evangelism and teaching the Bible so people will know that what they are doing is wrong, but we must also work to change the laws to bring them into conformity to God’s will.

Sometimes the attack on Christianity doesn’t involve promoting immoral activities but consists of trying to remove symbols of God and of Christianity from public life. Often our first impulse is to fight to preserve these symbols. This is usually a mistake. Merely removing symbols does no harm to us and in some cases it might actually do good. Here are some examples.

“In God we trust� is our national motto and appears on all of our money. Secularists want it removed. Christians should want the same thing because except for a small minority our country isn’t trusting God and it is hypocritical to publicly proclaim that we do.

“I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.� The words “under God� were added to the pledge of allegiance in 1954. Of course those who don’t believe in God would like to see them removed. But are the words true? Are we really a nation under God? Every nation is under God in the sense that he controls its destiny but the words in the pledge were intended to assert that we are a nation that submits to God and tries to follow his will. In this sense we aren’t really under God and it would be an act of honesty to remove the words from the pledge.

A lot of people are opposed to the presence of Christian symbols such as crosses and Nativity scenes on public property and Christians devote money and energy fighting their efforts. The attempt to remove Christian symbols is a symptom of our country’s moral sickness and not its cause. You can’t cure an illness by treating the symptoms.

If we win all of the battles over symbols so that “In God we trust� remains out national motto, the words “under God� remain in the pledge of allegiance, and crosses and Nativity scenes are allowed on public property, it will do nothing to persuade others to obey God. It is likely that it would be a cause of resentment that would make it more likely for people to reject God. Christians are supposed to live in such a way that we are known for our love; too often we are known for our litigation.

One tactic used in warfare is to trick the enemy into wasting its resources by attacking targets that are of no strategic value. Satan is a master of this and he is often successful. We must oppose any actions by our government that are contrary to God’s command or will limit our freedom to preach the gospel but we need to avoid wasting time and energy fighting over minor issues.

[Yahu]

In the past Christianity has had a strong influence on American culture. That influence has grown much weaker and that fact is reflected in our laws.

Because humans are created in God’s image human life should be protected. Today abortion is legal and there is a movement to legalize suicide by the terminally ill.

God established marriage as a permanent union between a man and a woman. Almost all states have no fault divorce laws which make it easy to end a marriage and many of them allow marriage between two members of the same sex.

If the United States persists in these sins we will inevitably face God’s judgment. Christians have an obligation to do all we can to change the direction our country is going. The primary tool for doing this is evangelism and teaching the Bible so people will know that what they are doing is wrong, but we must also work to change the laws to bring them into conformity to God’s will.

I have to totally disagree with your position. We don't have the right to force Yah's laws on non-believers.

Lets take abortion as an example. Yeshua in Rev 2 puts a death curse on the children of Jezebel. So IMO a woman that follows the ways of Jezebel that aborts her unwanted children is facing that curse stated by Yeshua. Who are we to prevent that curse from falling on her for her chosen lifestyle? So yes, I personally oppose abortion BUT I am NOT in favor of laws preventing it. Let Jezebel curse her own life with the shedding of innocent blood and let her face the consequences of those actions. You have to change society, not change the laws 1st.

We are also forbidden from being 'meddlesome busybodies' in the matters of other men's lives. It isn't our job to find the splinters in our neighbor's eye but to worry about our own salvation.

To change laws in our country, Christians would have to be the majority which we are not. Trying to impose our will over non-believers is just plain evil and is why the non-believers resist it.

Yes, this nation will face judgement for its sins. Who are we to prevent that?

[puddleglum]

[Replying to post 2 by Yahu]

Yes, this nation will face judgement for its sins. Who are we to prevent that?

God takes no pleasure in judging sin but prefers that sinners repent. Before he judged his people he warned them by sending prophets. Christians play the role of those prophets in today's society. We are commanded to warn people to turn from their sins and put their faith in Jesus Christ so they can be forgiven.[/quote]

[Yahu]

Christians play the role of those prophets in today's society.

Prophets are only a limited subset of Christians. That is just one office we can be called into like pastor, teacher or evangelist.

But of course many try to play the role of a prophet without having the calling as a prophet. That makes them false prophets.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 2 by Yahu]

It's not about whether or not the "Jeszabel" deserves to receive her Divine punishment, it's about saving the unborn babies.

Seems THAT is a fight worth fighting, with the force of securlar law if need be. (in addition to changing minds and hearts)

[Yahu]

[Replying to post 2 by Yahu]

It's not about whether or not the "Jeszabel" deserves to receive her Divine punishment, it's about saving the unborn babies.

Seems THAT is a fight worth fighting, with the force of securlar law if need be. (in addition to changing minds and hearts)

That's just it, you don't save what Yeshua has cursed. You have to root out the attributes of Jezebel in the women to save the children. Without changing the behavior of the mother, you can't save the child. Trying to force Christian morality onto the non-believer is counter productive. We are forbidden from being a meddlesome busybody in the matters of other people's lives.

So NO, it isn't a fight worth fighting by attempting to force Christian morality over non-believers by changing the laws when we don't constitute the majority. As a matter of fact, it is against scripture and against the will of Yah. IMO, it is far better for those children to die in innocence then be born to and raised by a woman like that.

[catnip]

[Replying to post 2 by Yahu]

It's not about whether or not the "Jeszabel" deserves to receive her Divine punishment, it's about saving the unborn babies.

Seems THAT is a fight worth fighting, with the force of securlar law if need be. (in addition to changing minds and hearts)

That's just it, you don't save what Yeshua has cursed. You have to root out the attributes of Jezebel in the women to save the children. Without changing the behavior of the mother, you can't save the child. Trying to force Christian morality onto the non-believer is counter productive. We are forbidden from being a meddlesome busybody in the matters of other people's lives.

So NO, it isn't a fight worth fighting by attempting to force Christian morality over non-believers by changing the laws when we don't constitute the majority. As a matter of fact, it is against scripture and against the will of Yah. IMO, it is far better for those children to die in innocence then be born to and raised by a woman like that.

I don't agree with that particular value judgment, btw. To begin, not all babies aborted are brought about by the slovenliness of the woman--sometimes men abandon and/or abuse women when they get pregnant. Psychologically, some men become frightened of the responsibility. Women don't have that choice. We can't run from the responsibility. Pregnancy often causes termination of employment or not being hired (despite the fact that these things are against the law, technically). It is a frightening thing to be between a rock and a hard place without anywhere to turn. And, that is only one potential cause of pregnancy--sometimes called "unwanted" despite the fact that under different circumstances it might very well be wanted--even intentionally created. Rape of various kinds has become somewhat the fashion in the past decade or so--it is on the rise and is not censured strongly enough. But again, men want to blame women and call them names like "Jezebel"! What do we call a man who doesn't stand up to his responsibilities? And then, horror of horrors, there is incest.

Seriously, blame men as well as women. Ask women, find out how many have had abortions or thought about it because men didn't live up to their obligations leaving them with the BURDEN AND THE BLAME.

[Yahu]

[Replying to post 2 by Yahu]

It's not about whether or not the "Jeszabel" deserves to receive her Divine punishment, it's about saving the unborn babies.

Seems THAT is a fight worth fighting, with the force of securlar law if need be. (in addition to changing minds and hearts)

That's just it, you don't save what Yeshua has cursed. You have to root out the attributes of Jezebel in the women to save the children. Without changing the behavior of the mother, you can't save the child. Trying to force Christian morality onto the non-believer is counter productive. We are forbidden from being a meddlesome busybody in the matters of other people's lives.

So NO, it isn't a fight worth fighting by attempting to force Christian morality over non-believers by changing the laws when we don't constitute the majority. As a matter of fact, it is against scripture and against the will of Yah. IMO, it is far better for those children to die in innocence then be born to and raised by a woman like that.

I don't agree with that particular value judgment, btw. To begin, not all babies aborted are brought about by the slovenliness of the woman--sometimes men abandon and/or abuse women when they get pregnant. Psychologically, some men become frightened of the responsibility. Women don't have that choice. We can't run from the responsibility. Pregnancy often causes termination of employment or not being hired (despite the fact that these things are against the law, technically). It is a frightening thing to be between a rock and a hard place without anywhere to turn. And, that is only one potential cause of pregnancy--sometimes called "unwanted" despite the fact that under different circumstances it might very well be wanted--even intentionally created. Rape of various kinds has become somewhat the fashion in the past decade or so--it is on the rise and is not censured strongly enough. But again, men want to blame women and call them names like "Jezebel"! What do we call a man who doesn't stand up to his responsibilities? And then, horror of horrors, there is incest.

Seriously, blame men as well as women. Ask women, find out how many have had abortions or thought about it because men didn't live up to their obligations leaving them with the BURDEN AND THE BLAME.

Believe me when I say I understand that not all unwanted pregnancies are due to a woman being a Jezebel. My own wife had a date rape drug used on her when she was on a TDY assignment and out celebrating a friend's birthday. She went out with friends and woke up with a man in her bed and no memory of the previous night. Her friend had drugged her to sabotage our marriage. She got pregnant from that and we were both anti-abortion personally. She has a daughter from that rape.

I most certainly can also blame men. I helped get the drug ring that was distributing those date rape drugs convicted. That drug ring was run by a coven that controlled men via sex and used abortion as a form of birth control. One of the coven leaders had already had 23 abortions and she was in her early to mid 20s.

[catnip]

[Replying to post 2 by Yahu]

It's not about whether or not the "Jeszabel" deserves to receive her Divine punishment, it's about saving the unborn babies.

Seems THAT is a fight worth fighting, with the force of securlar law if need be. (in addition to changing minds and hearts)

That's just it, you don't save what Yeshua has cursed. You have to root out the attributes of Jezebel in the women to save the children. Without changing the behavior of the mother, you can't save the child. Trying to force Christian morality onto the non-believer is counter productive. We are forbidden from being a meddlesome busybody in the matters of other people's lives.

So NO, it isn't a fight worth fighting by attempting to force Christian morality over non-believers by changing the laws when we don't constitute the majority. As a matter of fact, it is against scripture and against the will of Yah. IMO, it is far better for those children to die in innocence then be born to and raised by a woman like that.

I don't agree with that particular value judgment, btw. To begin, not all babies aborted are brought about by the slovenliness of the woman--sometimes men abandon and/or abuse women when they get pregnant. Psychologically, some men become frightened of the responsibility. Women don't have that choice. We can't run from the responsibility. Pregnancy often causes termination of employment or not being hired (despite the fact that these things are against the law, technically). It is a frightening thing to be between a rock and a hard place without anywhere to turn. And, that is only one potential cause of pregnancy--sometimes called "unwanted" despite the fact that under different circumstances it might very well be wanted--even intentionally created. Rape of various kinds has become somewhat the fashion in the past decade or so--it is on the rise and is not censured strongly enough. But again, men want to blame women and call them names like "Jezebel"! What do we call a man who doesn't stand up to his responsibilities? And then, horror of horrors, there is incest.

Seriously, blame men as well as women. Ask women, find out how many have had abortions or thought about it because men didn't live up to their obligations leaving them with the BURDEN AND THE BLAME.

Believe me when I say I understand that not all unwanted pregnancies are due to a woman being a Jezebel. My own wife had a date rape drug used on her when she was on a TDY assignment and out celebrating a friend's birthday. She went out with friends and woke up with a man in her bed and no memory of the previous night. Her friend had drugged her to sabotage our marriage. She got pregnant from that and we were both anti-abortion personally. She has a daughter from that rape.

I most certainly can also blame men. I helped get the drug ring that was distributing those date rape drugs convicted. That drug ring was run by a coven that controlled men via sex and used abortion as a form of birth control. One of the coven leaders had already had 23 abortions and she was in her early to mid 20s.

That isn't true! A woman can't have 23 abortions. Abortion causes scarring. Even one abortion could potentially render a woman incapable of pregnancy, although not common.

I see you managed to turn it around to blame women again.

[Yahu]

That isn't true! A woman can't have 23 abortions. Abortion causes scarring. Even one abortion could potentially render a woman incapable of pregnancy, although not common.

I see you managed to turn it around to blame women again.

I am assuming you mean, you don't believe it to be true as opposed to calling me a liar. I didn't witness her 23 abortions but that is the number she told friends. She had regularly scheduled abortions about 4 times a year and had done so for years. She also used the blood from her fetus' in her witchcraft.

As to turning it around to blame women, well if the shoe fits ... but I also admitted unwanted pregnancies are due also to men that just use women as sex objects.

My point was that those women that do follow the ways of Jezebel are cursed to have their children die by Yeshua. Many times that is by their own hand via aborting those unwanted children. It is just a continuance of Ashtoreth/Molech worship of the groves. The ritual prostitution in the Baalim worship created unwanted children that were sacrificed to Molech. Promiscuous sexual activity produces unwanted children and those children are killed to get rid of them. Jezebel was a high priestess of Ashtoreth and had the priestess of the groves at her table along with the prophets of Baal. Her name is even a reference to Ashtoreth meaning the 'consort of Baal'. A woman that follows the ways and doctrines of Ashtoreth worship is what is called a Jezebel in scripture.

Is that the only reason for abortion? No obviously not but makes up the majority IMO.

The point of this discussion is whether Christians have the right to stop a Jezebel from killing her own unborn children by force. Who are we to prevent the curse from falling on her?
And considering that the coven I helped get convicted was led by a high priestess of Ashtoreth, I have some experience is what it means to be a Jezebel.