Might some of the biblical Pro-Gay Arguments be Misguided?

Debating issues regarding sexuality

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cool_name123
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Might some of the biblical Pro-Gay Arguments be Misguided?

Post #1

Post by cool_name123 »

Is it possible we’ve been tackling this whole thing on homosexuality from the wrong perspective this whole time? One of the most made points I see on this topic goes goes something along the lines of this;

“Well, the biblical authors could not have possibly understood what we now understand today so the way in which they state this must be looked at through enlightened goggles of modernity.�

However, what if that assumption is wrong. What if they were more than aware of what homosexuality is as we currently define it (though perhaps understood through different terminology). What if the biblical authors were well aware of this alternative lifestyle. What if, instead of the point being framed as it is above, a more helpful way to look at the question is;

“Us modern readers are so removed from the context that these texts were written in that we cannot possibly speak to their understanding of being faithful followers of Christ?�

Now obviously, being someone with opinions on what the bible says, I do not believe that sentence to be 100% true... But is it possible that there is more truth in that second sentence than the one I started this thread talking about?


Let me articulate what I mean by bringing up a bit more of a sociological argument than a theological one. And, as always, bear with me here as I tend to use these threads as testing grounds to grapple with and strengthen ideas I’m toying with in my mind. So at the moment this may not be the most fleshed out argument.

The concept I want to bring to mind is that of technique. This often misunderstood sociological idea speaks to the radically new environment that we have found ourselves in within the past century or so. Those who wrote about it were pretty accurate in speculating where we might end up were we not to recognize the dangers associated with technique. But I’m getting off topic here. Essentially technique is best described in the following way;
“The term technique, as I use it, does not mean machines, technology, or this or that procedure for attaining an end. In our technological society, technique is the totality of methods rationally arrived at and having absolute efficiency (for a given stage of development) in every field of human activity. Its characteristics are new; the technique of the present has no common measure with that of the past . . . We are conditioned by something new: technological civilization. I make no reference to a past period of history in which men were allegedly free, happy, and independent. The determinism’s of the past no longer concern us; they are finished and done with.�

Ellul, J. (1964). The Technological Society. New York: Knopf.
Essentially, all this technological innovation has created a shift in how we engage with our reality, and that shift has been towards things like utility and efficiency. So when we speak about what these texts mean we are speaking from a perspective tied with efficiency, and integrally linked with ‘the best way to do the most right thing in this moment’...

Hypothetical example: For whatever reason you find yourself no longer in possession of a phone with no means or desire of acquiring a new one. Do you think you could find a new way of engaging with this world? Or has the notion of efficiency been so ingrained within your being that you’d merely fill that void with something to facilitate the same efficient means (be it email, or facebook or skype or some other hypothetical communication tool)? I certainly don’t think I could, and I think that’s a problem when efficiency dictates our lives instead of whatever that end is for us (I’m going to assume God for the most of us, but lets just keep it nice and generic by saying our relationships)

Now, that being said, what if all this efficiency was not a concern with either the biblical authors or those reading their letters in the early Christian church? What if, instead of efficiency, their concern was simply how to live a Christ like life. When we don’t treat the biblical texts like a manual of efficiency they takes on a whole different connotation because, now, what we are concerned about is merely doing the best we can to exemplify God and not desperately trying to check all the right boxes on our ‘get into heaven’ checklist.

I would suggest that when we read the scriptures in this, much less efficient way, that we begin to see that what all of the biblical authors really saw as important were our relationships. And when read in this way contradictions seem to become less obvious. Sin seems to take on the light of a turning away or a falling short instead of a moral wrong. What leads to broken relationships in one person or one congregation might not in another. What we’re left with is an understanding of morality that is far more grey than we seem to be comfortable with, which is a direct result of our technique influenced brains thriving on efficiency pushing us constantly towards terms of black and white. I’ve quoted this fellow before on this thread, but it’s just such a great quote, so to drive this point of a more relationally understood morality home, here’s Ivan Illich.
“People now tend to understand sin in the light of its "criminalization" by the Church during the Middle Ages and afterwards . . . It was this criminalization which generated the modern idea of conscience as an inward formation by moral rules or norms. It made possible the isolation and anguish which drive the modern individual, and it also obscured the fact that what the New Testament calls sin is not a moral wrong but a turning away or a falling short. Sin, as the New Testament understands it, is something that is revealed only in the light of its possible forgiveness. To believe in sin, therefore, is to celebrate, as a gift beyond full understanding, the fact that one is being forgiven. Contrition is a sweet glorification of the new relationship for which the Samaritan stands, a relationship which is free, and therefore vulnerable and fragile, but always capable of healing, just as nature was then conceived as always in the process of healing.�

Illich, I., & Cayley, D. (2005). The Rivers North of the Future: The Testament of Ivan Illich as told to David Cayley. (pp. 53-54). Toronto: Anansi.

So... Thoughts? Am I crazy, or might we need to reconsider how we treat this time gap argument? Perhaps shifting it from a ‘they couldn’t possibly understand our reality’ point of view to ‘we couldn’t possibly understand theirs’?

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Post #2

Post by JoeyKnothead »

From the OP:
Is it possible we’ve been tackling this whole thing on homosexuality from the wrong perspective this whole time?
As relates to this being a debate site and all, I'd tell it about how it is that those who can't show they speak for a god they can't show exists oughta be 'shamed for acting like they do.

But don't it beat all, "You big ol' gay folks y'all, a god I can't show exists to even have him an opinion, has an opinion I can't show he does, and how it is, not neither one of us likes how it is you carry on" is presented as a factual accont of the opinion of folks entirely incapable of showing they speak truth.

Concussions?

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Re: Might some of the biblical Pro-Gay Arguments be Misguide

Post #3

Post by DanieltheDragon »

[Replying to post 1 by cool_name123]
“Well, the biblical authors could not have possibly understood what we now understand today so the way in which they state this must be looked at through enlightened goggles of modernity.�

However, what if that assumption is wrong. What if they were more than aware of what homosexuality is as we currently define it (though perhaps understood through different terminology). What if the biblical authors were well aware of this alternative lifestyle. What if, instead of the point being framed as it is above, a more helpful way to look at the question is;
The assertion that the biblical authors understood sexuality in general better than we do today is completely false in every sense of the word. I have no doubts they were aware of same sex behavior. I also have no doubts that they had no idea where it came from.

I back this up with the text itself. It makes no claims as to why males who perform sodomy should be stoned. It makes an arbitrary order to do so. Neither does the bible demonstrate in anyway any semblance of understanding sexuality in any sense of the word except that it gets women pregnant at some point. The how and the why is not understood nor demonstrated(well at least they got as far as seed doing something in the woman's vagina)

On top of that the average US child is far higher educated than the most accomplished biblical author. As such is the case I would venture to claim that they also have a better understanding of the world around them then the authors of the bible themselves. To suggest that the biblical authors understood sexuality better than us as a collective whole, would be logically incredulous.

So no I don't give any credence to this culture as far as understanding human sexuality.

Hypothetical example: For whatever reason you find yourself no longer in possession of a phone with no means or desire of acquiring a new one. Do you think you could find a new way of engaging with this world? Or has the notion of efficiency been so ingrained within your being that you’d merely fill that void with something to facilitate the same efficient means (be it email, or facebook or skype or some other hypothetical communication tool)? I certainly don’t think I could, and I think that’s a problem when efficiency dictates our lives instead of whatever that end is for us (I’m going to assume God for the most of us, but lets just keep it nice and generic by saying our relationships)
I am severely ADHD so I feel I can speak on this subject very well. I lose break forget and misplace my cell phones all the time. That said I hate facebooking emailing and skyping. When I communicate with my loved ones I do best face to face, and occasionally using the phone. Even communicating on here is not something I prefer, but alas where am I going to be able to debate religion on a regular basis? I don't think I would be very welcome at churches debating their ministers every Sunday.

What your talking about here is generalities and blanketed statements made on ignorance, " I certainly don’t think I could, and I think that’s a problem when efficiency dictates our lives instead of whatever that end is for us." Because you can't imagine your life being any other way doesn't mean everyone else's life is the same.

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Re: Might some of the biblical Pro-Gay Arguments be Misguide

Post #4

Post by cool_name123 »

[Replying to post 3 by DanieltheDragon]

Maybe I should have made it more clear as to the specific argument I was speaking towards. Which is the argument that what Paul is condemning is more akin to that of pederasty or rape as they would not have understood the concept of a loving same sex same aged union in the way that we do today.
DanieltheDragon wrote:I back this up with the text itself. It makes no claims as to why males who perform sodomy should be stoned.

Why do they need to address a why? Might that not be our nice and efficient minds desperately trying to fill in any semblance of uncertainty? (efficiency hates uncertainty... that’s like the least efficient thing yo). This is kind of what I’m trying to get at, that the ways in which we speak and think and the things which we deem as important might not have even been on the biblical writers radar... And not because they were ‘stupid’ but merely because that’s not where they placed importance.
DanieltheDragon wrote:It makes an arbitrary order to do so. Neither does the bible demonstrate in anyway any semblance of understanding sexuality in any sense of the word except that it gets women pregnant at some point.

Again, why would they need to? I recognize why we would need to... We need to know, uncertainty is uncomfortable and as beings generally driven by efficiency in this day and age, we see it as a problem when we don’t know. But why does it need to be? Why can’t one be satisfied in their relationship knowing that this other will always be a mystery they will never completely unravel?
DanieltheDragon wrote:On top of that the average US child is far higher educated than the most accomplished biblical author.

Now what are you basing this on? That we can more efficiently add together numbers and understand concepts of science they might not have been aware of? Again, this brings us back to this efficiency driven means of understanding our reality. What you are judging there seems to be based on quantity not quality. When I read the bible what I see is a great deal of wisdom that schools rarely attempt to address which is the concept of conviviality (among other things). Saying our children are smarter than the biblical authors are seems a little arrogant as it states that you are the judge of what kinds of knowledge are important. Just because they may not have been as scientifically educated that does not mean that where their knowledge did lie was somehow less for being in a different subsection of knowledge.

DanieltheDragon wrote:So no I don't give any credence to this culture as far as understanding human sexuality

Again, perhaps I was not clear. By ‘understanding’ I meant a general knowing of... Again, and I don’t wish to sound like a broken record, but this seems to me at least to points towards our tendency towards efficiency wherein in order to understand something you need to know exactly how it works in the fullest sense possible. I’m sorry, if I’m the only one seeing efficiency in these terms, but the ways you’re using them seem incredibly concerned with ‘the best way possible’ Which is an incredibly efficient way of defining things.
DanieltheDragon wrote:I am severely ADHD so I feel I can speak on this subject very well. I lose break forget and misplace my cell phones all the time. That said I hate facebooking emailing and skyping. When I communicate with my loved ones I do best face to face, and occasionally using the phone.

Me too (right down to the H)... I will in fact frequently let my phone go dead so I don’t need to deal with it... But you can throw any piece of technology into that example. Your Car (or Bike), Your Computer, Your Table Saw or Radial Arm Saw if you’re a carpenter, perhaps your pen and paper if you’re an author... The point was more so the fact that we rely on any technology to the point wherein we cannot help but fill that void with another equally efficient thing illustrates the hold that technique has on us.
DanieltheDragon wrote:Even communicating on here is not something I prefer, but alas where am I going to be able to debate religion on a regular basis? I don't think I would be very welcome at churches debating their ministers every Sunday.
And I mean even right here! You’re utilizing this technology because it is the most efficient way of exercising this desire you have for theological discourse. Maybe it wouldn’t be welcomed at the church, but what’s stopping you from trying? I have these sorts of debates at my church all the time. Is it because it would be more difficult... perhaps less efficient to have said discourse in said way?

DanieltheDragon wrote:What your talking about here is generalities and blanketed statements made on ignorance, " I certainly don’t think I could, and I think that’s a problem when efficiency dictates our lives instead of whatever that end is for us." Because you can't imagine your life being any other way doesn't mean everyone else's life is the same.

I recognize not everyones life is exactly the same, but here’s the thing... I don’t think I am talking in generalities (at least not in western culture... I will admit to not being nearly as knowledgeable in other cultures). Sure that particular example is one I have personally experienced and identify with... But that was an example to illustrate a larger issue. And while the statement does blanket a great deal of our reality, I don’t think I am making an error in applying that blanket to describe our newfound reality. And I don’t think I’m generalizing, I think this is an issue virtually everyone suffers from aside from the fringe few whom have completely unhinged from modern society. I mean we’re starting to develope terminology based around technology to explain how technology is shifting our brain function in the direction of efficiency.


I get people can recognize a way of life less connected with technology, but the fact that they don’t, and dare I say can’t, back that up with actions says something... Much like the smoker whom states “I can quit any time I want to... I just don’t want to.�

Here, perhaps a more contextualized example of what I’m talking about might make more sense. So here, another dialogue from another scholar very familiar with the concept of technique. Perhaps the kind of wisdom spoken about in this speech is the type of knowledge the biblical authors were far more well versed in than we are today.


‘We can’t understand’ might have been hyperbole on my part... A better wording would perhaps have been that ‘we don’t understand.’ I recognize that people can see beyond this prison of technique if they really try. And I guess that’s the secondary thing I’m trying to get at, is that to accurately engage with these authors I think we might have to learn to look beyond this efficient way of engaging with our reality that so many don’t even realize is a guiding force in our lives.

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Re: Might some of the biblical Pro-Gay Arguments be Misguide

Post #5

Post by cool_name123 »

[Replying to post 3 by DanieltheDragon]

You may also recall... Right at the beginning there that I explicitly said I do not 100% agree with the statement I just made (for a number of similar reasons that you pointed out) but was rather asking if there was more truth in the one statement than the other. I think not articulating that better may have been where my argument began to suffer from hyperbole.

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Re: Might some of the biblical Pro-Gay Arguments be Misguide

Post #6

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to post 1 by cool_name123]

If we can't understand their point of view in the Bible what hope for their point of view on God?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: Might some of the biblical Pro-Gay Arguments be Misguide

Post #7

Post by cool_name123 »

[Replying to post 6 by Wootah]
cool_name123 wrote:Now obviously, being someone with opinions on what the bible says, I do not believe that sentence to be 100% true... But is it possible that there is more truth in that second sentence than the one I started this thread talking about?
Again, I’m just posing the question as to whether or not we are looking at things backwards in a sense by saying ‘they couldn’t possibly understand what we understand’ instead of ‘they understood things in a different light back then.’

Just to re-iterate things, I’m not so much saying we can’t know of their reality more so that because of how blinded we are by technological society that it has become incredibly difficult for us to recognize what the biblical writers might have actually deemed as important. And perhaps casting the question in a different light might be a good way of getting back to that understanding.
Last edited by cool_name123 on Sat Feb 07, 2015 1:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post #8

Post by cool_name123 »

cool_name123 wrote:Now, that being said, what if all this efficiency was not a concern....
Also, are people stopping just shy of this paragraph? Because it seems most peoples issues stem out of my set-up instead of how I see this playing into how we read the bible.

Just something I found interesting is all... I was sure all the flack I’d be recieving would be coming from this little line here:
cool_name123 wrote:What we’re left with is an understanding of morality that is far more grey than we seem to be comfortable with

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Post #9

Post by Haven »

As a doctoral student in sociology who studies gender and sexuality specifically, I don't see how what you have pointed out is relevant to the question of pro-gay (or anti-gay) interpretations of the Bible. Yes, it's true that the Biblical authors had a very different view of the world than 21st-century Westerners. With that said, many of the issues of Biblical interpretation (ambiguities, etc.) were controversial even during the first century (Paul & James had a well-known disagreement over the interpretation of the gospel message and works vs. faith, and they were less than 100 years removed from Jesus), which seems to point toward some genuine ambiguity in the Biblical narrative, rather than a simple error of modern interpretation.

A prominent sociologist, Michel Foucault, pointed out that texts (books, writings, and other forms of communication) can be interpreted in many different ways, and that no way is necessarily "correct." Texts, especially ancient ones with long-dead authors, can mean different things to different people based on their cultures, lived experiences, While I generally abhor postmodern sociology (Foucault definitely falls into this camp), I think he has a good point here--it's hard, if not practically impossible, to discover one specific "right" interpretation of a book

All this aside, we still need to return to the question of gay rights/marriage/relationships/social standing. Sociologically, there is no evidence to support the idea that gays, lesbians, and bisexuals are in any way inferior or detrimental to themselves, their children, or society as a whole, and there is a lot of evidence to the contrary. Because of this, there is no secular reason for condemning LGBT individuals or relationships. Since the Bible is not only ambiguous but a religious book that can have no legal standing in our society, I don't see how what it says is relevant to the question of gay rights.

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Post #10

Post by cool_name123 »

[Replying to Haven]
Haven wrote:Because of this, there is no secular reason for condemning LGBT individuals or relationships.
Just to clarify... You don’t think that’s where I come across on this issue, do you? As if there’s one thing I’ve never been OK with on this site, it is that.
Haven wrote:Sociologically, there is no evidence to support the idea that gays, lesbians, and bisexuals are in any way inferior or detrimental to themselves, their children, or society as a whole
Because never once did I say this, nor was this ever a point I even attempted to make... The sociological argument I brought up pertains only to how we see our reality and hence the things we read within said reality (like the bible).

Haven wrote:As a doctoral student in sociology who studies gender and sexuality specifically, I don't see how what you have pointed out is relevant to the question of pro-gay (or anti-gay) interpretations of the Bible.
Because I feel it is a question rarely addressed. Not so much that we live in different times as we know that and it’d be silly not to recognize that... But rather recognizing just how much our own societal influences plays into how we read the texts, even with this realization that things were different sitting in the back of our heads. Because, even if we recognize that things were different, but still read the texts, subconsciously, in light of our efficient understanding of the world, are we maybe reading the texts in a way that they were never meant to be read?

These are questions I am legitimately asking by the way, as I pointed out in my OP I’m kinda using this thread as testing ground for this idea.

Haven wrote:Yes, it's true that the Biblical authors had a very different view of the world than 21st-century Westerners. With that said, many of the issues of Biblical interpretation (ambiguities, etc.) were controversial even during the first century (Paul & James had a well-known disagreement over the interpretation of the gospel message and works vs. faith, and they were less than 100 years removed from Jesus), which seems to point toward some genuine ambiguity in the Biblical narrative, rather than a simple error of modern interpretation.
But are they really that different? Paul spoke about the saving power of Faith. James did too, James just tried to further articulate this idea that Faith and Works were integrally tied to the point wherein Faith cannot exist without works. It’s not merely that one is faulty without the other so much that one is not even possible without the other. And based on how Paul talks about faith elsewhere in his letters I think he’d have also understood faith in a similar light. In that way I think James would agree that you are saved by faith alone, because since one cannot exist without the other that would also entail the works of said faith. If you are saved by faith alone and one believes that faith cannot exist without works, how does that negate Paul’s statement? If anything it just adds clarity. But that’s a different argument for a different thread, suffice to say that I don’t actually see those texts to be as in conflict as many scholars have.

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