Opening Dialogue on Gender and Sexual Orientation

[ASOAK7]

Hello all. I have a school assignment that I am working on that requires me to pose some questions related to a certain theme my class has looked at over the course of the semester and dialogue with those who respond. In light of current events such as the supreme court case regarding homosexual marriage, I have settled on gender and sexual orientation. I would greatly appreciate any/all responses to the following questions:

Do you believe the differences between men and women are purely physical or are they rooted in a person’s nature?

Do you believe a person can change their gender?

- Do physical changes equal gender change?

Do you believe sexual orientation is a choice or something humans are born with?

Do you believe a person can change their sexual orientation?

Are all sexual orientations good?

- If yes, why do you believe so?
- If not, why not?

I will periodically post clarifying questions regarding your responses so as to better understand your view and will bold your name so it stands out in my post.

[Jashwell]

[Replying to post 1 by ASOAK7]

I have no qualms with any sexual orientation, I'd need a reason to have a problem with one (and I don't even see that happening). I also don't have a view one way or the other as to whether or not you're born with your orientation, though I'm dubious at people who say that there's it's literally all nature. Yes, I believe people can change sexual orientation, though not easily (and it's probably a lot easier to acquire a 'taste' than to lose one).

Here is a debate between Steven Pinker and Elizabeth Spelke on whether gender disparity is purely nurture (the way you're raised) or partly nature (born with it). As it stands, there are clear statistical differences that men and women are born with (i.e. height, weight and strength) - though these are statistical (there are still going to be plenty of women taller, heavier and stronger than plenty of men). The debate mentioned above is more about psychological differences.

Gender is a self identity, so, if you really wanted to, you could just change gender at will by considering yourself the opposite gender. Gender doesn't actually convey any real attributes. This is provable by the fact that two people of the same gender don't necessarily have anything in common. Multiple people might call themselves a certain gender, the same gender, for entirely different reasons. There will be other people who have those reasons but don't consider themselves that gender. For some people, physical changes might well constitute gender change. I'd certainly guess someone's gender from physical appearance.

[Bust Nak]

I am going to be difficult:

Do you believe the differences between men and women are purely physical or are they rooted in a person’s nature?

Both. I believe a person's nature is purely physical.

Do you believe a person can change their gender?

- Do physical changes equal gender change?

You can change the appearance of one's genital, that doesn't change your genes. There is currently no way to change one's X chromosomes into Y. But that's not really what you are asking is it? You want to ask if changing one's appearance equal gender change? For everyday purposes as in which toilet you can use, yes, I would say that's good enough.

Do you believe sexual orientation is a choice or something humans are born with?

Neither. It is something that develops over time as one ages.

Do you believe a person can change their sexual orientation?

By their force of will alone? No. But given what I said about a person's nature being purely physical, one could potentially change their brain in a neurosurgical procedure.

Are all sexual orientations good?

- If yes, why do you believe so?
- If not, why not?

Good as in morally right, or good as in beneficial? It's not a moral consideration at all, given what I said about it not being a choice. It's not beneficial to be attracted to children for example.

I will periodically post clarifying questions regarding your responses so as to better understand your view and will bold your name so it stands out in my post.

I look forward to it.

[ASOAK7]

[Replying to Bust Nak]

Thank you for your response. I'm glad you are looking forward to some questions because if I have anything in excess it is questions.

Do you believe then that a person's gender is fundamentally determined by genetics? Based on how you described it, I came to the conclusion that you believe physical anatomy is an outward manifestation of a person's gender.

You make the distinction between morally right and beneficial. Who decides if a thing is beneficial and can such decisions change over time? Why would you say a man being attracted to a child is not beneficial? And to what is it not beneficial? The child? The man? Society at large?

[ASOAK7]

[Replying to post 2 by Jashwell]

Thank you for your response.

Would you have qualms about a man who is sexually attracted to children? If so, why?

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to ASOAK7]


Do you believe the differences between men and women are purely physical or are they rooted in a person’s nature?

The differences between men and women are purely physical, however if by nature you are referring to ones identity or consciousness then gender becomes considerably more nebulous. We all start as one gender in the womb and the y-chromosome causes a release of hormones that causes certain physical changes which result collectively in what we refer to as the male gender. Certainly not every pregnancy results in perfect development. If we concede that there are differences in hormone production and neurotransmitter production and reception as well as structural differences in the brains between male and female, the lines of gender blur a bit as traits we associate with one gender can manifest in another. Reaching back to consciousness if our identity and consciousness is a product of how our brain functions then certainly the idea of who we are as a form of self identity can change vastly from person to person. What if someone born with an XY chromosome developed traits more associated with XX in terms of brain structure? Certainly some XY people have lived there entire lives thinking they were a woman as was the case of a married woman who was born with a vagina and struggled to have kids turns out she was a he and they only found out when seeking fertility treatments. The testies developed internally and no penis developed.

So what is gender? Is it a state of mind? Is it a set of genitals? Is it a suite of physical traits? Can a person with male genitals be born with the brain structure of a woman?




Do you believe a person can change their gender?

Yes, if we concede that gender is a suite of physical biological traits changing a set amount of traits to be more in line with one gender over the other could result in a gender change. If it's physical it's not immutable, with gene switch technology developing and our ever increasing ability to manipulate our genome it will only be a matter of time before we can manipulate gender on a genetic level.

- Do physical changes equal gender change?
Sure, even the mind is an extension of the physical nature of our brains.

Do you believe sexual orientation is a choice or something humans are born with?

We are not necessarily born with an orientation per say, but we do develop an orientation and this seems to be fairly tough to change beyond mere force of will. There is no choice involved at any point whatsoever.

Do you believe a person can change their sexual orientation?

People with strokes and severe brain trauma have been shown to change orientation.

Are all sexual orientations good?

No

- Depending on how you define good, I will just go with what is beneficial to a species and coercion. Pedophilia for example is bad because it causes trauma to the victims and makes it harder for the victims to integrate into social structures. This hurts the species as it creates a certain portion of the population that has trouble working with the rest and as a social species this makes it harder for us to survive as a whole. Coercion robs a partner of choice which usually causes trauma and harm. Trauma and harm is the opposite of good. Those with a predilection to use coercion whether physical or emotional create systemic problems within a social species not to mention individual harm. Orientations that fit within this seem to be not good.

Homosexuality seems to be beneficial in many species including humans. Sex has many benefits aside from just reproduction including reduction of stress increased immune systems and social bonding. Our species genetically speaking has mated predominantly polygynous leaving some individuals without heterosexual partners. Homosexuality seems to be an adaption to this, by giving members an emotional partner. Homosexuality typically arises in social species. Elephants being a prime example.

[Haven]

Do you believe the differences between men and women are purely physical or are they rooted in a person’s nature?

Like others who've responded, I believe a person's nature is purely physical, so I don't think there's a distinction to be made there. With that said, I think much of what we consider to be "differences between men and women" are socially constructed: created by our society and our discourse, or ways of thinking and doing. Remember that sex and gender are not the same thing: sex is biological (genitalia, chromosomes, and so on), while gender is psychological and social. When you speak of differences between women and men (and not females and males), you're talking about gender, not sex.

Do you believe a person can change their gender?

It depends on what you mean by "change their gender." The current scientific evidence suggests that people are more or less born with a gender identity, so in this sense, no, someone can't change their gender.

For some people, however, this inborn gender identity doesn't match their biological sex (for example, someone may be born male-bodied but have a woman gender identity), and this person may choose to transition their body and social roles to match their identified gender. These people are known as transgender or simply trans.

Do physical changes equal gender change?

If you're referring to the process of transition, then no: the person transitioning was always their identified gender and, by undergoing physical changes, is bringing their body in line with their inner gender identity. The transitioning person does not actually change genders; they always were the gender with which they identify (for example, a man-identified, female-bodied person transitioning [through hormones, surgery, etc.] to male has always been a man]).

Do you believe sexual orientation is a choice or something humans are born with?

As the great Lady Gaga said: "you were born this way, baby." All scientific evidence supports the idea that sexual orientation is innate and unchangeable.

Do you believe a person can change their sexual orientation?

No.

Are all sexual orientations good?

- If yes, why do you believe so?
- If not, why not?

Yes. All types of relationships (between consenting adults, regardless of gender) can bring love and fulfillment, and since no harm is being done, nothing immoral is happening. Again, consent (which can only happen between adults) is key.

[Haven]

[Replying to post 4 by ASOAK7]

Pedophilia is not a sexual orientation, it's a paraphilia, which is a type of mental illness. To compare it with the gay/lesbian-heterosexual continuum (which includes bisexuality and pansexuality) is both unscientific and absurd.

Any type of sexual abuse (including the rape of a child) is extremely damaging to the psychological and physical health of the victim, and so is unacceptable.

[bluethread]

[Replying to post 4 by ASOAK7]

Pedophilia is not a sexual orientation, it's a paraphilia, which is a type of mental illness. To compare it with the gay/lesbian-heterosexual continuum (which includes bisexuality and pansexuality) is both unscientific and absurd.

Any type of sexual abuse (including the rape of a child) is extremely damaging to the psychological and physical health of the victim, and so is unacceptable.

I find it interesting that the OP presumed a man was being referred to when nothing other than attraction to a children was mentioned. In the same vain, you have responded by defining behaviors that were not specifically referred to and then used those definitions, of your own choosing, to establish limitations on those very same behaviors. Of course, by of your own choosing, I mean with regard to application to the OP. I have no doubt that some appointed authority has established them as part of a particular discipline. So, could we step back and address the basic questions, before we presume social parameters? Who decides if a thing is beneficial and can such decisions change over time? I would add, what is it that gives that person or persons the right to decide what is or is not beneficial?

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to Haven]

Thanks for the clarification. I generally don't see gender attraction comparable to other types of attraction in the first place, since gender attraction is specific to that. Whereas other types of attraction can occur regardless of gender.