The Sins of the Sermon on the Mount

[Wissing]

This will be a discussion on Matt. 5:17-48.

This is where Jesus lays down the law. Normally we think of Jesus as the savior, the forgiver, the scolder of the self-righteous - but here, he plainly commands that we "be perfect". Is that something we can choose to do?

Take, for instance, the rule against anger. Not only is it wrong to actually murder someone, it's wrong to want to. It's wrong to feel anger. Another one - lust. Can I help it if my eye catches someone beautiful, and I look? Certainly not.

Often, we can't help but feel hostility towards others, or lust for those who we have no love for. More often, we can't just up-and-stop feeling these things. Sure, most of us can resist actually doing them. But wanting to?

So the question for discussion, then, is "How do we deal with the impossible standards Jesus sets for us?"

[ttruscott]

...

So the question for discussion, then, is "How do we deal with the impossible standards Jesus sets for us?"

1. Realizing that our failures are our fault, not GOD's.
2. Understanding that we need a saviour to bring us out of our self chosen addiction to evil which creates the inability to meet this true standard of righteousness.
3. Seeking the saviour with a repentant heart - which is the whole purpose of our life, HIS plan for us which IS our life.

4. In other words, it is comparing our inability to be righteous with GOD's goals for us that opens our eyes to the impossibility of our ever achieving HIS standards without the Saviour's help.

Peace, Ted

[Wissing]

[Replying to post 2 by ttruscott]

ttruscott, I disagree with you: savior is spelled "s-a-v-i-o-r".

But on the other points, spot on.

This is the paradox we find throughout the scriptures.

There exists a mandatory, perfect ethical standard, and God commands us to follow this standard, and says that he will punish transgressors, even to death. Yes, a very bloody, graphic death. From time to time, I've seen scripture references from atheists here to this effect [1], and I can provide further biblical evidence of the same [2].

And yet, we are often unable to meet that standard. Sometimes for reasons that we can help, and sometimes for reasons that we can't help. Either way, we are lost on our own. We deserve death. But God acts unfairly towards us - he grants us pardon despite our misdeeds, if only we trust in him. We don't have to succeed in being perfect (for how could we?), but we do have to put our faith in Him. Something is required - the blood of Christ and the faith of us - but that requirement is completely do-able by absolutely everyone. Unlike other faiths, ours is possible. God is building something wonderful for his faithful servants [3].

This paradox is not an inconsistency with scripture, but an inconsistency within our own understanding. Otherwise, why would the same author, Isaiah, discuss wrath and mercy in such close proximity? If it were the case that Isaiah just couldn't get his story straight, there's no way we'd still be reading it. People are dying for this faith, thousands of years later.

No, the paradox of wrath and mercy is no literary blunder. Even outside of scripture, in every-day life, this paradox is immediately observable. Not only does God pour out his righteous anger - we pour out our unrighteous anger so often. Often, we feel the full force of anger against even the most minor transgression. Often, we do not forgive even the slightest blunder. Ever been a waiter who has to deal with demanding customers? Ever been a customer whose order got messed up, and sent it back (I paid money for this, I want it to be right)? Both stances are reasonable, and yet so often it is impossible to dot every "i" and cross every "t". We demand perfection from one another, but we also expect leniency from one another.


For those in agreement, I think this would be a good place to continue providing examples from our own experience: perfection is demanded, yet forgiveness is expected.




[1]
Jeremiah 13:14 I will smash them one against the other, parents and children alike, declares the Lord. I will allow no pity or mercy or compassion to keep me from destroying them.
Hosea 13:15 Ephraim may flourish among the reeds, but the wind from the East will come, the breath of Yahweh will rise from the desert to dry his water-sources, to parch his springs, to strip his land of all its treasures. Samaria must atone for rebelling against her God. They shall fall by the sword, their little children be dashed to pieces, their pregnant women disembowelled. Israel, come back to Yahweh your God; your iniquity was the cause of your downfall.

[2]
Isaiah 63:1-3:
[God] It is I, proclaiming victory, mighty to save.
[Man] Why are your garments red, like those of one treading the winepress?
[God] I have trodden the winepress alone; from the nations no one was with me. I trampled them in my anger and trod them down in my wrath; their blood spattered my garments, and I stained all my clothing.

[3]
Isaiah 64:8-9 Yet you, Lord, are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand. Do not be angry beyond measure, Lord; do not remember our sins forever. Oh, look on us, we pray, for we are all your people.

Isaiah 65:8 As when juice is still found in a cluster of grapes and people say, ‘Don’t destroy it, there is still a blessing in it,’ so will I do in behalf of my servants; I will not destroy them all.

Isaiah 65:17-19
See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind. But be glad and rejoice forever in what I will create, for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight and its people a joy. I will rejoice over Jerusalem and take delight in my people; the sound of weeping and of crying will be heard in it no more.

[Wootah]

[quote="[url=http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 196#713196]Wissing[/url]"]
This will be a discussion on Matt. 5:17-48.

This is where Jesus lays down the law. Normally we think of Jesus as the savior, the forgiver, the scolder of the self-righteous - but here, he plainly commands that we "be perfect". Is that something we can choose to do?

Take, for instance, the rule against anger. Not only is it wrong to actually murder someone, it's wrong to [i]want[/i] to. It's wrong to [i]feel anger[/i]. Another one - lust. Can I help it if my eye catches someone beautiful, and I look? Certainly not.

Often, we can't help but feel hostility towards others, or lust for those who we have no love for. More often, we can't just up-and-stop [i]feeling[/i] these things. Sure, most of us can resist actually doing them. But [i]wanting[/i] to?

So the question for discussion, then, is "How do we deal with the impossible standards Jesus sets for us?"[/quote]

That's why Christians turn to God's salvation on the cross. We deal with our sin by taking it there.

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 2 by ttruscott]

ttruscott, I disagree with you: savior is spelled "s-a-v-i-o-r".

...

Canadian.....British......American
saviour..........savior .......savior

peace, Ted

[Divine Insight]

This will be a discussion on Matt. 5:17-48.

This is where Jesus lays down the law. Normally we think of Jesus as the savior, the forgiver, the scolder of the self-righteous - but here, he plainly commands that we "be perfect". Is that something we can choose to do?

Yes we can be perfectly moral.

I don't support the entire Biblical or Christian picture, but many of the things that Jesus taught are in harmony with the teaching of Buddhism, and I feel that Jesus may have indeed been trying to incorporate those teaching into his native Judaism.

In any case, there is no reason why a person cannot be "perfectly moral" (barring mental illness of course). And Jesus never addresses mental illness at all.

In any case, let's look at your concerns:

Take, for instance, the rule against anger. Not only is it wrong to actually murder someone, it's wrong to want to.

Yes, it's wrong to actually want to murder someone. Why should you feel that strongly about someone that you actually want to murder them?

There may be some exceptions to this. For example, if some criminal just brutally murdered a loved on of yours, it's perfectly natural to want to kill them. However, in this case it truly wouldn't be "murder" anyway. You would be justified in killing them according to the Bible. In fact, you would be require to stone them to death for their crimes.

So all thoughts of "killing" someone wouldn't be thoughts of "murder" anyway. Not in a Biblical sense. Because justified killing is not murder.

To want to murder someone you would need to want to kill them for unjust reasons. And why should you even want to do that? There is no sane healthy reason why you should ever want to actually murder anyone.

So if you are of sane healthy mind you shouldn't have any problem at all being perfect on this moral issue.

It's wrong to feel anger.

No. Especially not instantaneous anger in the heat of the moment. When it becomes immoral or a 'sin' is if you dwell on it and harbor those thoughts refusing to let them go or reconsider your emotions.

Another one - lust. Can I help it if my eye catches someone beautiful, and I look? Certainly not.

That's not lust. Lust is when you dwell on it and can't stop thinking about it. Or continually think about it without even trying to get your mind off it. Or worse you, imagine in your mind actually doing something about your desires.

Also, this would only apply to adultery. If you are unmarried and the woman you are attracted to is also unmarried, then pursuing the woman for a deeper meaningful relationship is perfectly fine. Of course, if your only purpose it to have sex with her and move on, then that's not good either.

But recognizing that you are sexually attracted to a woman is not a sin.

This is a big problem with many religious people they take things to extremes and beat themselves up over petty things that shouldn't even be thought of as being immoral.

Whether or not you can be "perfectly moral" can depend upon your own idea of what constitutes "perfect morality".

What you see as "Impossible Standards" I see as a "Piece of Cake".

It would be extremely easy for me to be morally perfect in the eyes of Jesus, IMHO. In fact, as far as I am concerned I am morally perfect in this regard.

Often, we can't help but feel hostility towards others,

There's no sin in feeling hostility toward others as long as you don't dwell on it, or act on it. Or even imagine acting on it in your mind (that's the same as dwelling on it).

Again, you beat yourself up by demanding impossible "perfectionism". Why think that Jesus was demanding impossible perfectionism?

Surely Jesus was reasonable?

or lust for those who we have no love for.More often, we can't just up-and-stop feeling these things. Sure, most of us can resist actually doing them. But wanting to?

DWELLING on it is the key issue here.

Imagining in your mind actually doing it is the other key issue.

If you see a woman who is extremely sexy and you think to yourself "My God! Would I love to be her man and become sexually intimate with her", you have not sinned. You haven't actually imagined doing it, you've only recognized the possibilities.

Remember, only if you imagine doing it in your mind have you actually committed the sin.

So the question for discussion, then, is "How do we deal with the impossible standards Jesus sets for us?"

It's simple. Don't make them into "Impossible Standards". That's your doing. You are setting yourself up for an impossible situation. Why do that?

I don't see the point in being so hard on yourself.

Unless, you are continually dwelling on these things and refusing to let them go, etc., then I see no reason to think that they are sins.

I know that there are hardcore fundamentalists who would love for everyone to be burdened with "Impossible Guilt". That's because they want you to cower down to being "saved" by their standards. But that's baloney.

Surely that's not what Jesus had in mind.

Why make Jesus into a monster when it's not necessary?

Especially if you're going to be a Christian and believe that Jesus is somehow the eternal judge of your soul. Why make Jesus into a monster? It makes no sense.

So unless you are dwelling on these things and refusing to let them go, then I don't see why you should think that these are impossible standards.

~~~~

Again, let me add that I don't view Jesus through Christianity. Perhaps it's Christianity that is so obsessed with condemnation that causes this. If you look at Jesus through the eyes of Buddhism he's not being unreasonable at all. He just saying not to dwell on negative thoughts. The same thing that Buddha taught.

[puddleglum]

Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
(Romans 3:19-20 ESV)

Jesus began his public ministry by explaining the Law more fully so everyone would realize that they were sinners. He ended by allowing himself to be crucified as a sacrifice for sins so that sinners could be saved in spite of their failure to follow the Law. He rose from the dead to demonstrate that God had accepted his sacrifice.

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
(Romans 3:21-26 ESV)

[Divine Insight]

Jesus began his public ministry by explaining the Law more fully so everyone would realize that they were sinners.

I don't see where Jesus ever proclaimed that everyone is a sinner. In fact, there are extreme problems with this.

At one point someone called Jesus "Good Master". Jesus replied, "Why call me good? None is good, save one, that is, God."

But this is a problem. If Jesus is denying being good, then Jesus himself must be a sinner and thus in need of a savior. Moreover, it cannot be said that Jesus was free of sin if he denies being good himself.

He ended by allowing himself to be crucified as a sacrifice for sins so that sinners could be saved in spite of their failure to follow the Law.

But if Jesus himself was not good, then allowing himself to be crucified as a sacrifice would be worthless.

He rose from the dead to demonstrate that God had accepted his sacrifice.

What sacrifice? What did Jesus sacrifice? His mortal life living among barbarians that he was clearly displeased with?

If Jesus was sin free then according to him his fate should be eternal life because he had earned it by being sin free. Therefore allowing himself to be crucified so that he could pass on to this eternal life in paradise would have actually been suicide for personal gain. After all surely living in an eternal heavenly kingdom that is perfect would surely be better than living amongst barbarians who are constantly looking for an excuse to kill you.

I don't see where Jesus "sacrificed" anything. Nor did God.

In fact, is this whole scenario was "God's Plan" and God cannot fail, then nothing was ever sacrificed because the plan was for Jesus to be resurrected and ascend to heaven anyway.

In fact, could there have even been a possibility that Jesus might have "Failed"?

No, of course not. If this entire scenario was "God's Plan" then there was never a time when Jesus could have failed. There was never any risk that the plan might go awry.

If we stand back and look at this story with critical eyes, we have no choice but to see the folly in it, even if it were all true!

Even if it were true, it would be nothing more than a God who can't fail playing head games with us. Neither Jesus, nor God would have ever risked anything, nor would either of them have sacrificed anything.

The whole idea of this scenario being a "sacrifice" made by God on behalf of mankind would be nothing more than a deceitful scam, even if the story is true!

If the story is true all it means is that we were created by a God who likes to play sick demented psychological games with us at no cost or risk to him.

[Wissing]

It would be extremely easy for me to be morally perfect in the eyes of Jesus, IMHO. In fact, as far as I am concerned I am morally perfect in this regard.

I am in no disposition to analyze Divine Insight's state of moral fortitude, myself being situated in a remote location, and himself being represented anonymously. However, the above comment does allude to a sentiment that is, in my experience, very common among the unfaithful, and regrettably even among the faithful.

It is imperative that we become aware of our imperfections, and not merely redefine perfection to something more manageable. For, if I redefine 'perfect' to mean 'whatever I already am', then how am I to improve? Where is the humanist zeal for progress, if the human is already perfect? What objective can the moralist pursue, if not ethical improvement? How is the faithful to perceive the grace of God, if not through the fruit of sanctification?

This is why, as I have requested above, we who agree in confessing our state of sinfulness should, to support Christ's claim in Matthew 5, use this space to elaborate on our personal encounters with this very real, observable phenomenon - absolute perfection is demanded from us at every turn - even in cases when it is impossible to achieve.

[Divine Insight]

It is imperative that we become aware of our imperfections, and not merely redefine perfection to something more manageable.

We're talking about morality here. Not being perfect in everything we do.

Where does it say anywhere in the Bible that being less than perfect is a sin?

For, if I redefine 'perfect' to mean 'whatever I already am', then how am I to improve? Where is the humanist zeal for progress, if the human is already perfect?

There are plenty of things we can improve upon that have nothing at all to do with morality. In fact, this entire spring I've been working hard to improve my home. I've also been practicing various musical instruments attempting to improve my ability to play music. I also continually study science and try to improve my knowledge of the world.

What objective can the moralist pursue, if not ethical improvement? How is the faithful to perceive the grace of God, if not through the fruit of sanctification?

Clearly this line of thinking can only be held by someone who feels that they already lack moral standards. Or they feel that there exist some God who expects impossible results.

You are the one who started this thread, and you are the one who stated as the debate question, So the question for discussion, then, is "How do we deal with the impossible standards Jesus sets for us?"

So apparently you are the one who has suggested that this demand from God, or from God's only begotten Son, is indeed impossible.

But now you are claiming that only the unfaithful could take a position that it's not impossible. What's up with that?

I saw no reason to believe that this would be impossible even when I was a faithful Christian. After all, why should I expect Jesus to direct us to do something that is impossible?

That makes no sense to me.

This is why, as I have requested above, we who agree in confessing our state of sinfulness should, to support Christ's claim in Matthew 5, use this space to elaborate on our personal encounters with this very real, observable phenomenon - absolute perfection is demanded from us at every turn - even in cases when it is impossible to achieve.

Well, hey, as far as I can see this is just yet another example of how different Christian individuals and denominations disagree on what the Bible has to say, and what Jesus expects from people.

I can legitimately speak as a "Christian", because I was one. And even when I was a Christian I would be in disagreement with your interpretations. Just as many Christian denominations disagree with each other.

I see absolutely no reason to believe that you can't be "morally perfect" unless you are simply being way too hard on yourself and forcing yourself to feel guilty about petty things for the sake of being a "extremist perfectionist".

I don't see where Jesus instructed anyone to become an "extremist perfectionist" to the point where their extremism would require that they become perpetually guilt ridden over every little trivial thing.

If noticing that a woman is sexy is a "sin", then of course I'm a "sinner". I wouldn't be a healthy male human being if I didn't notice that women are sexy.

But beating yourself up over this to the point where you end up cowering down on your knees begging God to forgive you for being a health male human is, IMHO, totally uncalled for, and even ridiculous.

When religion becomes nothing more than an "impossible guilt trip" something terribly wrong.