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Justin108
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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2015 1:22 am  Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death Reply with quote

Little Lucy was told by her mother to make her bed. Lucy didn't listen to her mother and decided to go play outside instead. Lucy committed a sin

Timmy wanted to have a cookie but his mother said no. Timmy sneaked into the kitchen and grabbed one out of the cookie jar. Timmy committed a sin

Billy's friend Jimmy brought his new Megaman action figure to school. Billy's family is poor and can't afford to buy Billy any toys. Billy covets Jimmy's new toy. Billy committed a sin


Do these three deeds deserve death?
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 21: Thu May 21, 2015 10:19 pm
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Re: Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death

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lefillegal wrote:

[Replying to post 1 by Justin108]

Yes, indeed they do. The wages of sin are death. So yes those deeds deserve death. But dont stop there. Romans is a book in the new testament. A proclamation of a new gospel. A gospel that teaches even though we all deserve death, we can be spared with the atonement provided in jesus christ. Jesus taught let those without sin cast the first stone, so although we recognise these deeds deserve death, we will not cast the stone that causes it. There is no moral dilemna for the Christian when asked this question because all vengence belongs to god, not man.


Welcome Lefillegal!

To my non-Theist ears, what you just wrote above is a collection of sound bytes typically heard together in that typical order.

They may feel to YOU like they have the solidity of a claim, as if they have actual explanatory power. On this forum, if you hang around long enough, you'll learn quick that deeply believed opinion and 'claim' are not similar (or even in the same universe?).

For me, the whole thing starts with WHO said such things deserve death, and just WHO this so-called authority is, and what in the world is the purpose of such a draconian, punishing and cynical belief that is purportedly coming from a loving God.

A loving God who set the conditions such that they are, and then punishes or rewards his minions as if they were serfs working his landed estates. What a total pile of hogwash!

I had a Presbyterian (I think) friend who really stepped up to help me (and, convert me) when I was in a very bad place. I was completely open to it. Anyway, I asked her something like that last paragraph but in a much more respectfully worded way. Like I said, I was participating in this conversion as best I could.

She said "It doesn't matter what you think about what God does. This is just the way it is. This is God, this is life, get used to it. What we opine about it means nothing."

This struck me hard. For the first time, I got a glimpse of what it is like to be a Theist. And then I knew (well, we both knew) that I wasn't even close to able to accept this. Either that phone call or the next one is where she started speaking to me in this odd, pressured voice, kind of like a preacher, which in retrospect was probably meant to bring me to my knees with the power of her words. My reply, whatever it was, assured her that I did not 'hear' God speaking through her, and since she was a bit of a Calvinist, she stopped calling me and I never heard from her again.

So YOU believe (presuppose) the a priori existence of a God that set up such a system that we humans are so pathetically sinful and unworthy we are condemned even as little children (or with original sin, from birth). With this presupposition in mind, it's making perfect sense to you. God's existence and intention are as obvious as it was to my Presbyterian friend.

But if God's existence from the git-go is not apparent whatsoever, 'the wages of sin is death' and being born in a condemned state sounds like superstitious and potentially harmful nonsense. It sounds so awful I want to rescue people who think like this from themselves.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 22: Fri May 22, 2015 5:45 am
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[Replying to post 21 by Hamsaka]

You might serve yourself by comparing what Christians believe to what you believe now to be true.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 23: Fri May 22, 2015 6:54 am
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lefillegal wrote:


Yes, indeed they do. The wages of sin are death. So yes those deeds deserve death. But dont stop there. Romans is a book in the new testament. A proclamation of a new gospel. A gospel that teaches even though we all deserve death, we can be spared with the atonement provided in jesus christ. Jesus taught let those without sin cast the first stone, so although we recognise these deeds deserve death, we will not cast the stone that causes it. There is no moral dilemna for the Christian when asked this question because all vengence belongs to god, not man.

What I want to stress here is your belief that these deeds do indeed deserve death. I understand your latter mentioned belief that we are saved by God's mercy and that we have no right to cast the first stone, but, again, the stress-point here is that we deserve death for the deeds mentioned in the post above.

Suppose for a moment that God tasked you to kill these three children. Would you?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 24: Fri May 22, 2015 9:23 am
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Justin108 wrote:
What I want to stress here is your belief that these deeds do indeed deserve death.
You seem to be arguing in this thread the correct interpretation of Paul's words to the Romans (in 6:23) is that he meant sin is to be punished by death. If that is in fact what you are arguing what makes you think this?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 25: Fri May 22, 2015 9:30 am
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Re: Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death

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Wootah wrote:

[Replying to post 21 by Hamsaka]

You might serve yourself by comparing what Christians believe to what you believe now to be true.


Not sure what you mean by this? Elaborate a bit more, I want to make sure I respond to what you are thinking of.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 26: Fri May 22, 2015 9:34 am
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1213 wrote:

I don’t think those are necessarily sins, because I have understood sin actually means that person rejects God. It is possible that those people did not reject God.

So, is sin not about morality but accepting that some god is real?

1213 wrote:
If I would be judge, I would forgive those actions and tell them that it is not right. If they would continue to do wrong things and prove that they are not righteous, then they would not get the eternal life, if we believe this:

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

So, the kid who keeps stealing cookies deserves eternal punishment for that?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 27: Fri May 22, 2015 9:45 am
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Goose wrote:

Justin108 wrote:
What I want to stress here is your belief that these deeds do indeed deserve death.
You seem to be arguing in this thread the correct interpretation of Paul's words to the Romans (in 6:23) is that he meant sin is to be punished by death. If that is in fact what you are arguing what makes you think this?


What I perceive Justin to be asking is a deeper question than an interpretation of Paul's words, which to me anyway seem pretty straightforward.

In your belief system, your God created this universe. He set it up with some pretty severe conditions, ie, even simple disobedience to him results in your death.

I can think of some less draconian and vicious options, but anyway . . .

I realize your God is THE (only true) God in your beliefs, but I doubt you'll be struck by lightning to explore what is up with such harsh conditions, and what this says about the nature of your God.

We wouldn't commit our own children to such conditions, and maybe the excuse for that is that we aren't Gods, or that God's reasoning is just implacable and so far beyond our capacity TO understand that when God seems evil to us, it is only our pathetic lack of understanding of God's will.

Or maybe God really is a complete bastard and thankfully abandoned us for the most part 2000 years ago, after 5000 years of walking and talking with us.

Or maybe our deeply superstitious human natures created your God (and all the others) out of whole cloth and the whole thing is the sadistic imagination of leaders trying to control their followers. All of the above have equal evidence to support them, perhaps a lot more logic in the last one, but still.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 28: Fri May 22, 2015 9:59 am
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Hamsaka wrote:

In your belief system, your God created this universe. He set it up with some pretty severe conditions, ie, even simple disobedience to him results in your death.
Are you talking about physical death as a punishment? Or are you talking more along the lines of spiritual death as in the sense of separation from God?

The author of this thread seems to be arguing that, under the Christian paradigm, a child deserves to be punished by death on the grounds they sinned all because Paul wrote the words, "...the wages of sin are death..."

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 29: Fri May 22, 2015 10:16 am
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[Replying to post 24 by Goose]

I interpret Romans to say that these sin deserve death. I'm not saying that God commanded us to start killing sinners if that's what you mean, though I believe that giving someone what they deserve is by its very nature a good thing. If a man deserves to be paid for a hard day's work then giving him his due is a definite good. Similarly, if a man has wronged another he deserves to be punished for his wrong doing and I would commend the man who delivers that punishment. This is, however, strictly on the condition that those who are rewarded or punished truly deserve to be rewarded or punished. This is, of course, where I disagree with Paul's claim that sin deserves death.

Regardless of who's doing the punishing, the notion of who deserves what has a definite implication on our perception of morality. As I said before, I commend those who bring justice whether it is to those who deserve reward or those who deserve punishment. This changes one's response to occurences. If, for example, a hard worker is rewarded for his efforts, I would be glad. If a mass murderer is killed, I would rejoice. If an innocent man is murdered, I would be saddened. Now if Paul is right about sin deserving death, it would mean that if a child dies who have commited the afore mentioned sins, it would be fitting for me to find joy in their deaths. Would you be pleased to hear about a child's death if they were guilty of these sins? If Paul is right then you should be. They deserve it

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 30: Fri May 22, 2015 10:46 am
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Goose wrote:

Are you talking about physical death as a punishment? Or are you talking more along the lines of spiritual death as in the sense of separation from God?

The author of this thread seems to be arguing that, under the Christian paradigm, a child deserves to be punished by death on the grounds they sinned all because Paul wrote the words, "...the wages of sin are death..."

I am arguing that Paul says...exactly what he says.

I've noticed a tendency among theists to interpret the Bible selectively until it says exactly what they want it to say. I understand that the Bible is open to interpretation, but sometimes, as with Romans 6:23, what it says is pretty basic and needs no in depth analysis of what it supposedly actually means.

Goose wrote:

Or are you talking more along the lines of spiritual death as in the sense of separation from God?

If I said I like bacon, what would be the more likely interpretation? That I like George Orwell's comments on communism during the Russian Revolution and "bacon" is a metaphor for the downfall of the communist leaders of Russia? Or can it simply be interpred as "Justin likes bacon".

Occam's razor: the simplest explanation is usually the best. Occam's razor applied to Romans 6:23 would conclude that Paul refers to death in the literal sense.

Whenever a theist appeals to metaphorical understanding, I often wonder why the author didn't simply speak in literal terms? Would it have been so much harder for Paul to say "the wages of sin is spiritual seperation from God"? Why overcomplicate things?

If you're going to make the claim that Romans 6:23 is meant to be understood metaphorically as apposed to literally then you would have to support that claim. It seems to me the only reason you insist it is metaphorical is because you dislike the literal version.

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