Foreknowledge and Free Will

[The Tanager]

I'm wondering what people here think of foreknowledge and free will. I've come across many people who feel that having knowledge of the future means that people cannot have free will. I don't see how that would necessarily be the case. I could (hypothetically, through time travel or whatever) know what your grandchildren will do on a certain date without actually making them make that choice. It would be more like me skipping ahead in watching a movie, rather than being the writer or director of the movie. But, often, people connect the two and believe that, if the future can be known that means one does not have control over their own life. What do you all think?

[pshun2404]

[Replying to post 1 by The Tanager]

Knowing something will happen before it happens does not equal causing it to happen...thats a logic fallacy called an invalid derivation....the conclusion does not necessarily flow from the facts revealed.

God knows what we will do. He may even intervene and by grace offer us a choice to choose differently (like He did with Cain). We could choose differently (we are capable) but in most cases we will not. But in those cases where a response to such grace was acted on God already knew that as well. The reason he bothers is because it must be your will to give into sin which makes judgment just (Romans 1)...so that they are without excuse...at the judgment one will not be able to say "the devil made me do it" nor "you irresistibly made me to do this thing" (remember "God tempts no man"

[Divine Insight]

(Romans 1)...so that they are without excuse...at the judgment one will not be able to say "the devil made me do it" nor "you irresistibly made me to do this thing" (remember "God tempts no man"

This flies in the face of the fact that these same superstitious tales have Jesus casting evil demons out of people who had been possessed by them.

You can't claim that men make their own choices and simultaneously claim that they can be "possessed" by evil demons. These superstitious fables are clearly self-contradictory and inconsistent.

Back on the original topic. It really doesn't matter whether knowing the future would violate free will. There is no evidence that anyone knows any future events. In fact, there is no evidence that anyone has any actual free will anyway. The very concept of free will may be nothing more than an illusion.

There's simply no way to prove otherwise. In fact, according to studies done in neuroscience human brains supposedly makes choices even before we are consciously aware that we have actually made the choice. I'm not sure how this is determined, but I've heard this claim made by neuroscientists.

So precisely how "Free" our conscious will is seems to be in question from a scientific perspective.

[ttruscott]

...

I've come across many people who feel that having knowledge of the future means that people cannot have free will.

...

I agree that knowing something will happen before it happens does not equal causing it to happen. But this is not the problem with omniscience as it is defined as there is still a strong argument to be made that GOD's foreknowledge cannot be the omniscience that most think it is.

The current definition accepted by Christianity came from pagan Greek wisdom writings from the early Father's addiction to errudition and claims that GOD is all knowing from eternity past to eternity future by HIS nature.

This sounds well and good but it is specious in it means that HE knew who would end in hell before HE created them but created them anyway. This is directly contrary too and destroys the concept of HIM as a loving and holy Person. Holy is defined as the inability to do evil and if love can do no harm to a neighbour, how much more so their child? Romans 13:10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. ...then so a persons' creation for no better goal than to go to hell is neither loving nor holy. To believe in this definition o omnisciense is a case where theology has triumphed over the plain understanding of GOD's nature.

The word says HE wants all to be saved...all HE has to do to empty hell is to not create those HE foresees to end there!

The best solution (and the one I believe to be the closest to what probably happened) to why God created satan and the most evil demons/people and His supposed knowing they would cause such havoc and suffering is that

His omniscience is based upon His creative decree. Since nothing is or has been created without His creative decree, it is obvious that He therefore knows everything in the ordinary sense of omniscience.

This is all very ordinary but it also implies that if He did not decree something, His omniscience did not cover it.

If He did not decree the outcome of the true free will choice (made by faith, not proof), of His creatures, the outcome of their free will choices would not be covered by His omniscience.

If He did not know the outcome of their true free will choice until they actually made their choice:
He had no prior knowledge of any evil they might choose nor
who would reject Him to become His eternal enemy, nor
who would answer His call to join Him in loving communion of marriage as His church nor who would enter the church then go their own (sinful) way becoming the prodigal son, the good but sinful seed or the lost sheep who will return.

God did not create a creature/child in His own image that He knew was destined to be His eternal enemy but created us all as eternal spirits equally capable and with equal opportunity to choose to become His church or His enemy for eternity with a plan as to how to deal with both choices in the most loving, just manner possible.

This idea can't be ignored as a possible solution indicating that in all probability a solution does exist and we can trust God to have found it.

Scripture support is found in that every verse about HIS all knowingness refers to what can be known about HIS creation and is well expressed in

Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

This limits HIS omniscience to 'all HIS works', that is HIS decrees of creation, and it started at 'the beginning of the world.'

Therefore if HE did not decree into creation something, HE did not know it...and I contend HE did not decree the results of our true free will decisions so HE did not know what those results would be until we decided them for our selves.

Peace, Ted

[bluethread]

This is not necessarily a theistic issue. Social/genetic determinism is also a form of predestination. For example, many who reject theistic determinism argue quite frequently in favor of certain behaviors being acceptable, because they are genetically determined. They also argue that other behaviors are excusable based on predetermined tendencies. In fact, the widely lauded Greek concept of tragedy is the view that apparent independent decisions are actually predetermined, when one takes the long view, ie. Oedipus Rex.

[pshun2404]

[Replying to Divine Insight]


When I speak of free will I am not speaking about “libertarian� free will (sorry I was not nit picky specific I should have foreknown someone would misinterpret that), of course there are always things and circumstances, and even forces, influencing and even somewhat shaping our choices, but the point was that the God the Bible presents does not MAKE YOU pick the green pants over the blue…you choose.

As for your possession example (which means someone is being controlled by some other living entity) that does not hold water. Even people today who are free to choose are still manipulated, coerced, brainwashed, indoctrinated and thus being controlled (just like when professional media intentionally shapes or engineers the opinion of the public)…these are clearly outside intelligent forces acting on the choices we will make but we still make the choices (albeit sometimes we need to be set free from these unseen influences)

As for invisible (to the eye) living entities sometimes being responsible for what we call some forms of sickness we just use a different term (bacteria).

And finally no matter how one tries to spin it, knowing something is going to happen does not make it happen. I can know exactly the place where the moon will be in the heavenlies at 7 pm tomorrow night and what day exactly it wi;; be full in July but I clearly have not caused these things to happen in just that way.

Paul

[The Tanager]

It really doesn't matter whether knowing the future would violate free will. There is no evidence that anyone knows any future events. In fact, there is no evidence that anyone has any actual free will anyway. The very concept of free will may be nothing more than an illusion.

There's simply no way to prove otherwise. In fact, according to studies done in neuroscience human brains supposedly makes choices even before we are consciously aware that we have actually made the choice. I'm not sure how this is determined, but I've heard this claim made by neuroscientists.

So precisely how "Free" our conscious will is seems to be in question from a scientific perspective.

I am not trying to prove foreknowledge or free will exists in this thread. That is a completely different discussion (and as equally important if not moreso). I was attempting to address what appears to me to be an error in thinking I have ran across quite often in discussions on boards like these. Mine was a narrow logical question. I wanted to analyze the logic outside of a discussion of competing views on some other specific topic. I see no reason to think that (if these things are assumed for the sake of argument) foreknowledge would invalidate free will as some often claim.

[The Tanager]

[Replying to post 4 by ttruscott]

Ted, what do you make of God's relationship to time? Do you think God experiences a past, present, future or is it a different kind of experience for God?

[ttruscott]

...

Even people today who are free to choose are still manipulated, coerced, brainwashed, indoctrinated and thus being controlled

...

To my mind a will is free when free from force and coercion. Influences do not force a choice, they just try to manipulate or lead the choice so the will is still free.

The influences you mention are not the problem which in Christian terms is our being enslaved to sin, addicted to its pleasures and power. It takes a rebirth to break that addiction.

Peace, Ted

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 4 by ttruscott]

Ted, what do you make of God's relationship to time? Do you think God experiences a past, present, future or is it a different kind of experience for God?

Well, my experience is that every time a theologically minded person runs up against a hole in their theology they suddenly describe GOD as a Time Lord and that supposedly magically fixes everything. I don't think so.

The Trinity exist in a loving, living and therefore communicative relationship. This means sequential thoughts and messages with each other. I have an ongoing thread on another forum where I invite all to show me what verses they use for the GOD is outside of time idea and all they do is repeatedly tell me HE must be outside of time because it is found in their theology only, not scripture.

It might still be a logical necessity even though not in scripture (like our free will) but since the idea leads to a blasphemy, I am personally quite content to reject it as having any meaning at all. HE is loving and holy, and eternal, and time lord tricks cannot make HIM to be content to create evil or evil people in Adam without their free will involvement.

Peace, Ted