Was Job righteous?

[Wissing]

In the book of Job, it says in the very beginning that Job is a righteous man [1]. However, later on in the book, Job curses the day he was born [2]. His friends come to him and tell him he must have done something wrong, to deserve the wrath of God [3]. This happens several times, and each time Job responds affirming that he believes he is innocent, and asking what in the world he did to offend God [4]. Later he expresses longing for a way to contend with God, for an "umpire" - he expresses sorrow that God is infinite and almighty, not mortal so that Job can plead his case [5].

Again and again, his friends chime in the old cliché: what goes around comes around - the Lord punishes the wicked and blesses the righteous. Job disagrees.

Finally, a young man speaks up, rebuking both Job and his friends for their self-righteousness [6].

Lastly, God speaks directly to Job [7]. God spends several stanzas rebuking Job - for arguing without knowing what he's talking about (hmm... how often do we do this on the internet). And yet, God also later rebukes Job's friends and makes them sacrifice to Job. Here, after Job has answered in humility to God, He says Job has spoken rightly [8].

The question for debate is this:

Was Job really righteous, or was Job unrighteous?




References: All quotes from NRSV.
[1] Job 1:1 "There was once a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job. That man was blameless and upright, one who feared God and turned away from evil."

[2] Job 3:2-4 "Job said:
Let the day perish in which I was born,
and the night that said,
‘A man-child is conceived.’
Let that day be darkness!
May God above not seek it,
or light shine on it."

[3] Job 4:17 (Eliphaz speaking) "Can mortals be righteous before God? Can human beings be pure before their Maker?"

[4] Job 7:20-21 "If I sin, what do I do to you, you watcher of humanity?
Why have you made me your target?
Why have I become a burden to you?
Why do you not pardon my transgression and take away my iniquity?"

[5] Job 9:32-33 "For he is not a mortal, as I am, that I might answer him, that we should come to trial together.
There is no umpire between us, who might lay his hand on us both.

[6] Job 32:2-3 "Then Elihu son of Barachel the Buzite, of the family of Ram, became angry. He was angry at Job because he justified himself rather than God; he was angry also at Job’s three friends because they had found no answer, though they had declared Job to be in the wrong."

[7] Job 38:1-3. "Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind:
“Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?
Gird up your loins like a man,
I will question you, and you shall declare to me."

[8] Job 42:7 "My wrath is kindled against you and against your two friends; for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has."

[puddleglum]

I believe Job's experiences illustrate this statement by Jesus.

Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
(John 15:2 ESV)

Job was righteous and served God faithfully but God used the trials he experienced to bring him to a higher level of righteousness so he could serve God better.

[Yahu]

[Replying to Wissing]

You don't understand the situation. All of Jobs friends were pagans following other gods.

Job was righteous in that he refused to honor their pagan gods. This is hard to see unless you study it in the Hebrew. You also have to be familiar with the pagan reference s. For example, Eliphaz is a single worshipper.

[Yahu]

[Replying to post 3 by Yahu]

Make that a sun god worshipper. The spell checker changed it.

Eliphaz tells job that his god travels across the sky but can't see thru clouds. There are also many other pagan references. Eliphazs doctrines are straight out of Babylonian paganism.

Alphas basically tells Job to how down to Satan to get the attacks to stop.

[Wissing]

[Replying to Yahu]

Which verses describe Job's friends as pagans?

I didn't think the friends were telling Job to bow down to Satan. I thought they were telling him to repent of his sins. That they were using his apparent punishment as evidence of guilt, and recommending that he acknowledge his guilt and change his ways. Which verses make you think otherwise? I'd like to hear a more thorough exposition, Yahu - please elaborate.

[Yahu]

[Replying to post 5 by Wissing]

First off, the friends use different words translated as God. It should not be capitolized when they are speaking. Job uses Elohyim but the others use elowah, elyon and el. Now el doesnt mean god but means the mighty one and is subjective.

There are many pagan reference all over Job but because the translators dont understand the context, they get mistranslated. For example Job 8:8-10 tells Job to seek out an ancestrial spirit guide. Another place Job is told to apease the gods by visiting the pagan groves and engage in a sex act with an Asherah pole but gets translated as 'behind a tree in the midst of the garden' when it should be 'a tree (asherah) in the midst of the backside in the tended garden (grove)'.

Jobs friends were just further attacks by Satan.

Now Eliphaz was Essau's eldest son via a Canaanite mother. His doctrine is a mixture of paganism. Eliphaz lived at Temen, ie the city of his eldest son.

The timeframe of the plagues following on Job is the time of the Exodus. Satan is tricked into attacking Job but the plagues also hit Egypt and Yah uses them to free Israel. Job is a foreshadowing of the messiah, a righteous man that suffers to free a multitude of others.

I am on the road atm but a have a commentary at home that I wrote that goes chapter by chapter explaining the references. Send me a private message with your email if you want me to email it to you when I get home next month.

Now the ancient paganism is my area of study for many years, ever since I had a conflict with a high priestess of Ashtoreth. Satan is the ancient pagan sun god. That is portrayed all over the OT. Now Job directly tells his friends that he will not honor the sun god or the moon goddess (Job 31:26-28). He rejects all their pagan gods.

[Wissing]

[Replying to Yahu]

Thanks for your reply. I'll make my counter-case here now, and I'll check back next weekend.

Here's some context for the Job 8:8-10 passage, from the ESV. I've copied verses 5-13. This is from Bible Gateway.

If you will seek God
and plead with the Almighty for mercy,
if you are pure and upright,
surely then he will rouse himself for you
and restore your rightful habitation.
And though your beginning was small,
your latter days will be very great.

“For inquire, please, of bygone ages,
and consider what the fathers have searched out.
For we are but of yesterday and know nothing,
for our days on earth are a shadow.
Will they not teach you and tell you
and utter words out of their understanding?

“Can papyrus grow where there is no marsh?
Can reeds flourish where there is no water?
While yet in flower and not cut down,
they wither before any other plant.
Such are the paths of all who forget God;
the hope of the godless shall perish.

I don't think Bildad is specifically calling Job to worship pagan gods, or a specific ancestral spirit. I'm not just saying this because he uses the word "God". (I recognize that translation errors can happen.) Instead, I'm referring to the context. The emphasis is not on who to worship, but how to do it. Seek, plead for mercy. Bildad makes the case that, if you're good, blessings will come to you. This could easily be Bildad's (incomplete) interpretation of whatever scriptures he had to work from [1][2].

The bygone ages could be those of Genesis, or any other scriptural document, or even verbal stories that have been passed down. I think he's saying this: listen to the words long written down. Heed the time-tested traditions passed down to you by your predecessors. We know little compared to the wealth of knowledge passed down to us. And here's what they say - the word of God is nourishment, and if you reject it you suffer.

Bildad sees God's covenant as one of punishment and reward - an exchange of good works for blessings. Job disagrees - he states some of the flaws with this over-simplification. He points out that the righteous often suffer while the unrighteous prosper.

Furthermore, I can't find the place where Job is encouraged to sex in a garden. The only place I can find the word "garden" in any translation, is in Job 8:16. This verse is a follow-up to the one quoted above. It describes what happens to those who forget God - though their shoots spread all over the garden, their roots cause the house to crumble. These are metaphorical terms. The Complete Jewish Bible has the clearest interpretation I could find of this section.

Now, perhaps you are an expert in these matters. If that is the case, I think it would be helpful for you to find and post the excerpts from your commentary - you are more likely to be able to select the appropriate ones. It would not help the discussion for me to exhaustively read your works, but I would find it helpful for you to post specific excerpts regarding the above passages. Let's focus on these few, for now, to keep it brief.



[1] Genesis 22:15-18: God tells Abraham that he will be blessed because he obeyed God's voice.

[2] Genesis 26:4-5: God tells Isaac that he will be blessed because Abraham (A) obeyed God's voice and (B) kept God's commandments.

[JehovahsWitness]

Was Job really righteous, or was Job unrighteous?

" He is the finest man in all the earth. He is blameless--a man of complete integrity. He fears God and stays away from evil." - GOD

[ttruscott]

Was Job really righteous, or was Job unrighteous?

" He is the finest man in all the earth. He is blameless--a man of complete integrity. He fears God and stays away from evil." - GOD

Agreed.

But later GOD challenges him:

Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

The first thing I notice is verse 2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? This tells me that Job is not quite so faithful to his GOD at it would have seemed at first blush. Does a faithful follower argue against his GOD from ignorance? When faced with adversity, faith bows its head, right? As Job did at first?

Then GOD demands he answer: 4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. If Job has no idea where he was at that time and was a faithful follower, then there would seem to be more to this challenge than proving HE is GOD and Job is creature.

Is HE saying "See how deficient you are," or is HE reminding Job of his past (but forgotten) experiences [v42:3] especially at the creation of the physical universe: 7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

It seems to me that to go so far back in their history together is to remind Job of how long his lack of full faith has gone on. It also reminds him that he does know the truth about YHWH's invisible attributes of power and divinity so that he was without any excuse for unfaith because he was there when all of creation sang HIS praise and (symbolically) bent their knees at HIS glory.

GOD finally ends HIS lesson for Job with Job 40:1 Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said, 2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it. and Job humbles himself before HIM.

GOD then asks him: 8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous? referring us back to HIS use of Job in tricking Satan to reveal to the whole of creation the depth of Satan's evil that he would monster the most righteous old man on earth just because he was allowed to do it!

Then Job repents 42:3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not....6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

Has he just been reminded of his earthly lowness or has he been reminded of things he had forgotten which caused him to talk from a misunderstanding that as a sinner, though he never sinned on earth, he was still guilty?

This interpretation fits my premise, of course, that Job had been created with all the spirits created in HIS image before the creation of the physical universe which explained how he was able to be there with the rest of the morning stars and sons of GOD at its creation. It was before the creation of the universe that he sinned against GOD though once born, lived a perfect life by the grace of GOD, though he was still a sinner and all punishments and judgments on his sin were righteous.

That this interpretation does not stand alone as proof of anything is obvious for those who know I support these contentions with many other verses about our pre-earthly existence.

[JehovahsWitness]

Was Job really righteous, or was Job unrighteous?

" He is the finest man in all the earth. He is blameless--a man of complete integrity. He fears God and stays away from evil." - GOD

Agreed.

But later GOD challenges him

Yes, but does being "the finest man on [...] earth" mean perfection? Would that mean "nothing left to learn/all knowing"? Does being "blameless", "righteous" mean never needing your viewpoint adjusted?

If you believe so, you are overlooking that many many bible characters that God loved, and loved to the end of their lives made mistakes and needed to change their viewpoints. Take Abraham, that was told to "listen to [Sarah]" - evidently because his (Abraham's) viewpoint was contrary to God's purpose and Sarah was right on the matter. The Prophet Nathan, that gave a false (Incorrect) message to King David and was told to go back and say the exact opposite of what he (Nathan) had previously said. Jehoshophat, who was repremanded for his disastrouse alliance with Ahab... and many many more. All these men were viewed to the end as righteous and blessed accordingly but they were far from perfect and STILL had vital lessons to learn.

When God changes his mind and rejects someone because they have ultimately broken their integrity and taken an unrepentent sinful course (eg King Saul, Solomon, King Uzziah, ) he SAYS so, often, as in the case of Saul, refusing all future contact with that one. He (YHWH) God, certainly doesn 't go on to bestow His blessings on them as he did with Job.

In short, being "blameless" or "righteous" is not the same as being perfect. And being perfect does not mean one has nothing to learn. Job may have needed his viewpoint reajusted, but Jehovah loved him, blessed his integrity and had his actions recorded in scripture as a stellar example of patience and integrity.



JW




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