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Do you accept Haredi reincarnation?
yes
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 50%  [ 1 ]
no
50%
 50%  [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 2

Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 1: Mon Jul 06, 2015 2:53 pm
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haredis and rebirth

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The term "Haredi" is new to me, sorry for my inattention to Jewish topics.
As I hear it now, what used to be called "ultra-orthodox" is now shortened to "Haredi", and one thing they have in common is that they consider all Jews to be Haredi, but in the process define non-Haredis as not Jews. Am I hearing this rightly?

Why do I, a non-Jew (variously was Methodist, Roman Catholic, Charismatic, Episcopalian, currently ELCA Lutheran) care?
Well, not just that I'm interested in anything relevant to my religion or for that matter anything interesting.
No, my doctrine of the after-life is modeled on what I thought was strictly Hasidic Jewish teaching. That they expect not just Elijah's coming "any day" we might say, but that his "rebirth" is just one example of what applies to everyone. Every person who dies gets born again as a human being, usually as one of his/her descendants. Like the Tibetan Buddhists, they look for features in the new born that bespeak some (usually recently) dead ancestor. I'm not sure if this is a special favor granted to Jews (i. e. Haredis) only or if this doctrine of rebirth (only until Messiah comes, of course) applies to all humanity.
Sorry, as a zealous student of the deceased authors Gershom Scholem, Sholem Asch, and one of Chaim Potok's biggest fans, you would think I would not have to ask the above

I learned that not just Hasids may believe in this Western form of reincarnation that I believe (as my take on what "Purgatory" means among Roman Catholics and "Stations" means among Eastern Orthodox), but other Jews may as well. I have thought particularly of Orthodox Jews (the one branch of Judaism I find distasteful) as Jews most often fellow "believers" here with me and Hasids. I'm guessing that the new (to me) term Haredis is simply (or largely?) a way to embrace both of the old terms "Ultra-Orthodox" and "Orthodox".
Am I anywhere near right? That Hasidic Jews and (most of) Orthodox Jews (which can be jointly called "Haredi") believe in the Western form of reincarnation that I share with them? (Gee, does that make me a Jew while most of you using this sub-forum are not? Just trying to get a rise out of you, disregard last transmission, my mother's maiden name was Woodward.) How many other "Jews" (even by a non-Haredi stretched definition to include Conservative, maybe even Reform
Jews) also share "our" faith?

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MPG Recipient Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 2: Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:12 pm
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Re: haredis and rebirth

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[Replying to post 1 by Korah]

Here is a discussion of "Haredi Judaism." I am neither Orthodox nor Haredi; though some Orthodox would consider me Jewish, many would not, and I doubt if any of the Haredim would; but I don't hang out with them, and I don't much care.

Haredim, as the article says, define themselves as "the most religiously authentic group of Jews." The simple fact is, that is historically and Judaically inaccurate. Judaism has always been pluralistic; even in Jesus's day, there were competing schools of thought between the famous rabbis Hillel and Shammai, not to mention the Sadducees and the Pharisees. The very founder of Hasidism, the Baal Shem Tov, carried on a theological feud with the Gaon of Vilna in the 18th century (they actually "excommunicated" each other). Today, all these people are considered "religiously authentic," honored rabbis of the past, and a vital part of our religious history and traditions.

There have always been many ways to be Jewish, and from where I sit, any Jew who denies that isn't particularly "authentic." It's fine to have one's own opinions, but the tradition in Judaism is to affirm one's own without condemning another, whose opinions differ, as "not a real Jew."

But to the point of your question: Reincarnation, though never called that (the term is gilgul neshamot in Hebrew, the "wheel of souls") is acknowledged in the daily service even by Conservative Jews like me; but it seems to be acknowledged as a possibility, and not a "religious doctrine."

In point of fact, Jews don't have those. Ours is not a religion characterized by a fixed set of required dogmas or beliefs, but by a concern about ethical behavior. We don't have ANY formal teachings about what comes after death, for instance; individual Jews believe what they like, and few (other than the Orthodox, of course) will proclaim that they KNOW.

What happens when we die? I dunno. That's God's business. Our concern is THIS life, in THIS world. The point of human existence, for Jews, is tikkun olam -- the "repair of the world." Making this world and this life a better one -- for ALL people, and not just for Jews. The rest is interesting, but not required. In point of fact, it's been estimated that as many of 15% of practicing Jews are actually, in practical terms, atheists.

Doesn't matter. "Beliefs" and a dollar will buy you an order of McDonald's fries. What you DO is what matters.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 3: Tue Jul 07, 2015 9:41 am
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Re: haredis and rebirth

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[Replying to post 2 by cnorman19]
Yes, I very much appreciate your perspective on the matter. For one I was not aware Conservative Jews were as likely to believe in "reincarnation" as you state.

But surely you're not saying Conservative Jews are Haredim, you explicitly deny that. That leaves my inquiry unaddressed as to who is a Haredi beyond the Hasidics, the only Jews I was aware of (and of almost 60 years duration of reading thereabout) being called "ultra-orthodox". So Satmar, Lubavitcher, and all the other standard (enter Polish or Ukrainian town) Hasids are Haredim, but who else? Or is this new "consensus" on what "Haredi" means really meaningless. "Haredi" = "Hasid" + "what". What is "what"? And for my particular interest, do the "what"s believe in reincarnation like I and the Hasids do?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 4: Tue Jul 07, 2015 10:28 pm
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Re: haredis and rebirth

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[Replying to post 3 by Korah]

I don't know that Conservative Jews "believe in" reincarnation. Few are even aware of the meaning of gilgul as they recite the daily service -- even among the minority who actually ATTEND morning minyah. The same is probably true of Orthodox Jews and even Hasids.

As for the rest -- did you read the article at the link? Some Jews call themselves "Haredi." Some don't care for the term. It's rather like "Ultra-Orthodox" in that way. I know that I'm NOT Haredi, and beyond that, my curiosity rather wanes. I have to wonder why someone who isn't within a light-year of needing to know is concerned about who is and is not "Haredi."

Haredi Jews are those who call themselves that. What else is there to know -- and what difference does it make?

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