Which Rules Are for Christians?

[Ancient Paths]

There seem to be different rules regarding right and wrong in different churches and denominations. In some Pentecostal churches, men should not wear short-sleeved shirts. In old-order Mennonite churches, everyone must (should?) drive a black car, but in some other Mennonite churches, any color car is acceptable. In Catholic churches, not going to confession means sins are retained, but most other denominations don't even have the practice of confession. To Seventh-Day Adventists, not going to church on Saturdays is a sin,... or is it that going to church on Sundays is a sin? Some churches/denominations ordain homosexuals and others consider homosexuality a sin.

Where do people/churches get these rules and their definitions of what's sin and what's not? Shouldn't Christianity have a common standard? Shouldn't the Bible somewhere define what constitutes sin and what doesn't, or does/should Christianity get its cues on right and wrong from whichever society or culture a church is in?

So I've asked several questions here that are all getting at the same point: how is right and wrong (sin) defined and who defines it?

Peace.

[tam]

...or does/should Christianity get its cues on right and wrong from whichever society or culture a church is in?

So I've asked several questions here that are all getting at the same point: how is right and wrong (sin) defined and who defines it?

"Christianity" can and will do as she chooses. But a Christian should get their cues from the one they claim to follow: Christ.


"If you love me, you will obey my commands." John 14:15

Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them." John 14:21

If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands and remain in his love. John 15:10


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[bluethread]

[Replying to post 4 by bluethread]

I understand that different groups and individuals accept different sources for their respective codes of conduct, but should they? Every church I have ever visited or been a part of claims that they live out their lives in accordance with the Bible, yet each one has been different from the other. If every Christian group and individual says that their goal is to live according to the Bible, then where in the Bible is one to find this code of conduct? There is only one God and he gave us only one book, so is it right to base a denomination's practices on the writings of, for example, Ellen G. White, Joseph Smith, Sun Myung Moon, etc.? Surely the code of conduct for a Christian must be found somewhere within the pages of the Bible, but where?

The Bible is silent on a lot of practices that "the church" today considers important if not a matter of sin. A lot of what "the church" does today would, according to the Bible, be considered sin. Who or what is the authority for making such a determination?

If nothing else, thanks for helping me to refine what's on my mind.

Well, HaTorah leaves that to the one who sits in "the seat of Moshe'". In short, if it doesn't violate Torah it is up to the community to decide. That is what Yeshua was referring to when He said, MT. 23:2-3 "The Torah-teachers and the P'rushim," he said, "sit in the seat of Moshe. So whatever they tell you, take care to do it. But don't do what they do, because they talk but don't act!" If one wishes to be part of the Methodist community, one should abide by the methods of John Wesley. If one wishes to be part of the RCC one should follow the Papal dictates. That said, if those methods and dictates violate HaTorah, one should consider whether one should be part of such a community. As to who actually sits in "the seat of Moshe", that is no longer clear. We have certain rabbinic rules that we follow in our community, but we do not require them of other communities.

[puddleglum]

God has established universal standards of right and wrong that are binding on everyone. Jesus summarized these standards in two commandment: Love God with all of your heart and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself. All of the moral commandments in the Bible are detailed instructions on how to carry out these two commands.

In addition God gives specific instructions that apply only to certain groups or individuals or are valid only for certain times. For example, before Christ came to earth people were commanded to offer animal sacrifices to atone for their sins. These sacrifices were intended as illustrations of how Christ would die to take away our sins and they are no longer required.

Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.
(Colossians 2:16-17 ESV)

In addition many churches make rules that their members must follow. Breaking these rules isn't sin. In fact some churches establish practices and rules that contradict the Bible and a person must disobey them. This practice was common while Jesus was on earth. He often condemned the scribes and Pharisees because they put their traditions ahead of God's commands.

[Ancient Paths]

It is contrary to the nature of laws to have them for what you can do.

Okay, good point, so where in Christianity do we find a list of behavior that is prohibited or frowned upon by God?

The best guide to live is the golden rule.

The Golden Rule is found at Lk. 6:31, "Do unto others what you would have others do unto you." Is this the only rule a Christian must live by? I'm thinking there must be more because some people have widely different views of acceptable or desirable actions toward others. I once had a friend who thought slapping his buddies on the stomach unexpectedly was great fun and was a sign of comraderie. I disagreed. I have a friend who is a Christian who believes that we should be allowed to access various media--music, movies, photos, etc.--without paying. I disagree; I call that theft. So people who all think they're operating according to the Golden Rule could still differ widely on their practice of it.

[Ancient Paths]

"Christianity" can and will do as she chooses. But a Christian should get their cues from the one they claim to follow: Christ.

"If you love me, you will obey my commands." John 14:15

Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them." John 14:21

If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands and remain in his love. John 15:10

Tammy, I like what you wrote because it sounds sensible to me: Christians follow Christ, so Christians should do as he said. In fact, I think John says as much at 1Jn. 2:6. This leads me to another question, which is: what are his commands?

I hear different Christians say any of the following. Christians must follow:
- only the four laws mentioned at Acts 15:20
- only the Ten Commandments
- only the laws that Jesus reiterated in the NT
- only the Ten Commandments except the Sabbath
- only the two commands to love God and love others as ourselves
- none of God's commandments because the Law is bad
- the "Law of God" but not the "Law of Moses"
- our hearts because God knows our hearts
- whatever one's church says (as long as it's the speaker's church)
- the seven Noahide laws

Which do you say are Jesus' commandments and why?

[Ancient Paths]

God has established universal standards of right and wrong that are binding on everyone. Jesus summarized these standards in two commandment: Love God with all of your heart and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself. All of the moral commandments in the Bible are detailed instructions on how to carry out these two commands.

I also believe that God must have established his standards of right and wrong, but I disagree that they would be binding on anyone but those who belong to him. One can obey God's commandments without belonging to him (being "saved") and it gets that person nowhere except in this life.

In addition God gives specific instructions that apply only to certain groups or individuals or are valid only for certain times. For example, before Christ came to earth people were commanded to offer animal sacrifices to atone for their sins. These sacrifices were intended as illustrations of how Christ would die to take away our sins and they are no longer required.

Can you give an example of an instruction that applies only to certain groups? I'm aware, for example, that Israelites may not eat an animal that is found dead on the road no matter how recently it died, but a non-Israelite who is living or traveling among the Israelites may, but those non-Israelites are not God's people; they are aliens and foreigners to the covenant.

Regarding sacrifices for sin, we have Jesus saying at Mt. 5:17-19 that not the slightest bit of the Law is to be abolished, which would include sin sacrifices. Also, I hear Christians speak of moral, civil, and ceremonial law, but I'm not aware of anywhere in the Bible that such a delineation or distinction is made. Have I missed something?

"Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ."
(Colossians 2:16-17 ESV)

What is your point regarding this verse?

In addition many churches make rules that their members must follow. Breaking these rules isn't sin. In fact some churches establish practices and rules that contradict the Bible and a person must disobey them. This practice was common while Jesus was on earth. He often condemned the scribes and Pharisees because they put their traditions ahead of God's commands.

So how is one to distinguish between what God commands and what a church institutes as a tradition? In the verse you quoted above, Col. 2:16-17, every single thing you listed is commanded by God, but the church dismisses them as mere traditions.

[Ancient Paths]

Well, HaTorah leaves that to the one who sits in "the seat of Moshe'". In short, if it doesn't violate Torah it is up to the community to decide. That is what Yeshua was referring to when He said, MT. 23:2-3 "The Torah-teachers and the P'rushim," he said, "sit in the seat of Moshe. So whatever they tell you, take care to do it. But don't do what they do, because they talk but don't act!"

This has confused me because much of what Jesus taught against were the extra-biblical laws that the Pharisees and scribes had added and were adding to Torah, yet here he says to obey whatever they instruct.

If one wishes to be part of the Methodist community, one should abide by the methods of John Wesley. If one wishes to be part of the RCC one should follow the Papal dictates. That said, if those methods and dictates violate HaTorah, one should consider whether one should be part of such a community.

Except, if I'm understanding you correctly, if Torah is the standard for Christians today, then neither the Methodists nor the RCC would be acceptable. I may wish to be part of a Methodist community, but if that community doesn't keep Torah, and it doesn't, then I shouldn't be a part of that community. So, for you, is Torah what you believe the standard is for Christians today?

[bluethread]

God has established universal standards of right and wrong that are binding on everyone. Jesus summarized these standards in two commandment: Love God with all of your heart and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself. All of the moral commandments in the Bible are detailed instructions on how to carry out these two commands.

In addition God gives specific instructions that apply only to certain groups or individuals or are valid only for certain times. For example, before Christ came to earth people were commanded to offer animal sacrifices to atone for their sins. These sacrifices were intended as illustrations of how Christ would die to take away our sins and they are no longer required.

Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.
(Colossians 2:16-17 ESV)

In addition many churches make rules that their members must follow. Breaking these rules isn't sin. In fact some churches establish practices and rules that contradict the Bible and a person must disobey them. This practice was common while Jesus was on earth. He often condemned the scribes and Pharisees because they put their traditions ahead of God's commands.

Yet, you interpret Paul's admonition about questions with regard to salvation to say that one no longer needs not keep certain commandments. Paul makes it clear that keeping those commandments and the sacrifices never resulted in salvation. So, does that mean that no one ever needed to keep those commandments?

[puddleglum]

I also believe that God must have established his standards of right and wrong, but I disagree that they would be binding on anyone but those who belong to him. One can obey God's commandments without belonging to him (being "saved") and it gets that person nowhere except in this life.

All of us belong to God because he is our creator and therefore we are all subject to his moral laws.

Can you give an example of an instruction that applies only to certain groups? I'm aware, for example, that Israelites may not eat an animal that is found dead on the road no matter how recently it died, but a non-Israelite who is living or traveling among the Israelites may, but those non-Israelites are not God's people; they are aliens and foreigners to the covenant.

You just gave the kind of example you asked for.

Regarding sacrifices for sin, we have Jesus saying at Mt. 5:17-19 that not the slightest bit of the Law is to be abolished, which would include sin sacrifices.

The sin sacrifices included in the law were pictures or illustrations of the sacrifice Jesus was made. His death fulfilled them rather than abolished them. They had served their purpose and were no longer needed.

Also, I hear Christians speak of moral, civil, and ceremonial law, but I'm not aware of anywhere in the Bible that such a delineation or distinction is made. Have I missed something?

Perhaps this will help you:

https://clydeherrin.wordpress.com/2012/ ... testament/

So how is one to distinguish between what God commands and what a church institutes as a tradition? In the verse you quoted above, Col. 2:16-17, every single thing you listed is commanded by God, but the church dismisses them as mere traditions.

The items on the list were commanded by God but the Bible itself shows they were intended only to be in effect until Christ came.

[puddleglum]

Yet, you interpret Paul's admonition about questions with regard to salvation to say that one no longer needs not keep certain commandments. Paul makes it clear that keeping those commandments and the sacrifices never resulted in salvation. So, does that mean that no one ever needed to keep those commandments?

Those to whom the commands were given needed to keep them. The commands God has given can't bring salvation because no one can keep them perfectly.