Gun Control

[jgh7]

Gun control in America is a very hot topic right now. Do religious views factor at all into swaying someone to be for or against gun control?

I'm also just plain interested in the topic of gun control and whether it's right or wrong. I know this site is meant for topics to be relating back to religion, but for this topic in addition to religious views I'd also just like to know people's general opinions of gun control.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 20 by puddleglum]

If you were in danger you would try to protect yourself;

21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[h] 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him. 51 With that, one of Jesus’ companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.
52 “Put your sword back in its place,� Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.
I'll just let Jesus argue my case that it is just your personal opinion. What part of do not resist an evil person involves shooting them? Is turn the other check just baloney?

[Hamsaka]

[Replying to post 8 by Hamsaka]

Wasn't Jesus advising his disciples before sending them out to teach his message, knowing they would be in danger along the way? It seems to specific to the situation he was sending his disciples into for guns to be a Biblical issue.

He was addressing a specific situation but his command does reveal a general moral truth; it is permissible to own weapons for protection.

Under which situation is it permissible to defend oneself though?

Clearly if your being mugged or robbed your supposed to give the mugger/robber your belongings.

If you are being improperly arrested your not to resist?

What situation is using a gun permissible?

Yes, thank you. Puddleglum's initial response to me was reasonable, in a very general sort of way. Defending one's self in a violent situation isn't just common sense, it is instinctive. We have an orchestra of neural nubs in our brains that respond defensively before the rest of our brain even has a clue.

Yet then Jesus also goes on to admonish his followers to not resist Roman occupation and oppression. A different, perhaps contradictory moral truth was taught on the Mount. Thus, Daniel's list of questions above. Contradictions (including apparent ones) naturally, helplessly cause these kinds of questions to arise in the human mind.

What moral truths gleaned from Jesus' teachings are best rendered with consideration to the context in which Jesus taught. He wasn't on the Mount when he admonished his disciples to carry swords for their self-protection. They were planning their journey to spread Jesus' message in a particular political/cultural situation where journeyers were at risk for attack on the road.

So, if your are 'on the road' for the purposes of spreading Christ's message, a person could glean a moral truth from what Jesus told to his disciples as they set off to spread his message. That seems fair -- especially considering Jesus' formal Sermon on the Mount, which was to the public in general -- not his disciples setting off into danger. Jesus' message for the townsfolk was quite a different message. He didn't admonish them to arm themselves with swords or weapons, but you could say he admonished them to arm themselves with faith in his words as the Son of God.

Do all persons evangelizing carry weapons as Jesus told his disciples to do? Or do they regard that particular message of Jesus' to be reflecting the circumstances of his times? A moral truth given by Jesus would fall into the category of 'objective morals', as Jesus is God incarnate. An objectively given moral, from God, is an 'absolute', as far as I understand Christian thoughts on objective morality. But the sweet little Mormon boys assigned to the neighborhood I work in don't look like they could even point a gun, much less carry one. (to the generic reader/poster: Please refrain from disputing this point with "they aren't even Christians!", just so we can stay on topic).

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 22 by Hamsaka]

I would just like to echo you and state to clarify for those reading that I do think it is reasonable as you have pointed out much in the same way earlier comments about self defense. It is also my belief that this is a subjective moral value we have instilled upon ourselves as a culture. This value does not reflect necessarily a biblical point of view and can run contrary to biblical claims.

Thank you for your insightful addition to the debate and I hope potters will further consider your post.

[puddleglum]

[Replying to post 22 by Hamsaka]

Do all persons evangelizing carry weapons as Jesus told his disciples to do? Or do they regard that particular message of Jesus' to be reflecting the circumstances of his times?

Jesus had previously sent the disciples out unarmed to preach the gospel among the Jews. They didn't need weapons because the area they were going to was under Roman occupation. The Romans were oppressors but they did give their subjects protection from criminals. Jesus would soon send them out to preach throughout the world and they would often be traveling in regions that weren't protected by Roman soldiers. The lesson Jesus was teaching is that we should prepare for whatever circumstances we will actually encounter. Here is an explanation of the apparent contradiction between telling them to buy swords and commanding them to turn the other cheek.

https://clydeherrin.wordpress.com/2014/ ... her-cheek/

[Hamsaka]

[Replying to post 24 by puddleglum]

Your blog link focuses exclusively on the 'turn the other cheek' teaching, as representative of the entirety of his pacifism teachings. I'd be interested to hear from you how, in their entirety, Jesus' teachings on pacifism are taken to support Christians owning weapons like fire arms.

There are a million things a person can use to defend themselves, or to kill another person, but nothing works quite so efficiently as a gun, whose sole purpose (besides target practice) is to KILL, not maim, not threaten and chase someone away, but to take their life EASILY (a couple retractions of the trigger finger, and aim).

That said, it is still a stretch for me (and many others including Christians) to claim that pacifist, gentle-but-firm Jesus Christ, if he is God and aware of modern life in the USA, would intend his followers to possess weapons that kill so easily and effortlessly. I can't shake the kind, gentle Jesus who RARELY allowed himself to express anger, being A-OK with his followers using HIS words to justify gun ownership -- much less justify using his precious few teachings (that came from him, not Paul and whoever else) to support the Second Amendment. That almost makes me laugh .

[puddleglum]

[Replying to post 25 by Hamsaka]

Jesus' teachings on pacifism

When did Jesus ever teach pacifism? He was God as well as man and before his incarnation he often commanded Israel to wage war against its enemies. When he returns he will destroy his enemies in the final battle.

And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army. And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur. And the rest were slain by the sword that came from the mouth of him who was sitting on the horse, and all the birds were gorged with their flesh.
(Revelation 19:19-21 ESV)

During his incarnation he refrained from violence so he could carry out the purpose for which he came, to die for our sins.

the kind, gentle Jesus who RARELY allowed himself to express anger

He often expressed anger when he was speaking to or about the religious leaders who opposed him. If you want an example of this read chapter 23 of Matthew. Because he was sinless he knew how to express anger without sinning but he was often angry.

What is the source of your opinions about Jesus? Have you read the gospels to find out what he did and said or did you base them on what other people say about him?

[OpenYourEyes]

jgh7 wrote:
Gun control in America is a very hot topic right now. Do religious views factor at all into swaying someone to be for or against gun control?

I'm also just plain interested in the topic of gun control and whether it's right or wrong. I know this site is meant for topics to be relating back to religion, but for this topic in addition to religious views I'd also just like to know people's general opinions of gun control.


My response:
I do not believe that Christianity has anything to say about "guns" being used as self-defense. I believe though that self-defense does not conflict with Christianity. Some try to use passages regarding turning the other cheek but that's other context and does not involve physical harm which is usually the justification to use a gun.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with allowing regular civilians to carry guns. I believe they should go through periodic training and extensive background checks (including psychological assessments) similar to those that police officers have to go through.

[bluethread]

jgh7 wrote:
Gun control in America is a very hot topic right now. Do religious views factor at all into swaying someone to be for or against gun control?

I'm also just plain interested in the topic of gun control and whether it's right or wrong. I know this site is meant for topics to be relating back to religion, but for this topic in addition to religious views I'd also just like to know people's general opinions of gun control.


My response:
I do not believe that Christianity has anything to say about "guns" being used as self-defense. I believe though that self-defense does not conflict with Christianity. Some try to use passages regarding turning the other cheek but that's other context and does not involve physical harm which is usually the justification to use a gun.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with allowing regular civilians to carry guns. I believe they should go through periodic training and extensive background checks (including psychological assessments) similar to those that police officers have to go through.

Yes, Yeshua's teachings are focused on civility and justice, not pacifism. Also, not all pacifists believe that violence is never appropriate, any more than those who support the use of violence support indiscriminate killing. I believe in the principle of appropriate response. Yeshua's point was that "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" is the maximum limit for judicial rulings. Not the expected norm in interpersonal relationships.

[Texan Christian]

Gun control is a Biblical issue.

And he said to them, “When I sent you out with no moneybag or knapsack or sandals, did you lack anything?�

They said, “Nothing.�

He said to them, “But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one. For I tell you that this Scripture must be fulfilled in me: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors.’ For what is written about me has its fulfillment.�
(Luke 22:35-37 ESV)

Jesus taught that it is permissible to own weapons for self defense. There should be restrictions to keep criminals and children from obtaining guns and some weapons such as machine guns should be banned but a law abiding citizen should be able to legally obtain weapons so he can protect himself.

Whenever a mass shooting takes place there are demands for increased gun control but such controls are attacking the symptoms of the problem rather than the cause. I am 74 years old and I remember a time when guns were easy to obtain and yet we didn't have the mass shootings we have today. There was one other difference. Most people believed the Bible and the standards of morality it taught. Today people know little about the Bible and many reject it. As a result children grow up without solid standards of right and wrong. The real problem we face to day isn't the availability of guns but the fact that so many people don't see anything wrong with using them to kill innocent people.

Its good to see someone of your age out here debating and giving us wisdom of experience, thank you for that

I do agree with you on this topic.
Here're a few things for y'all to think on.
-Kennesaw, Georgia passed a law REQUIRING heads of households to keep firearms, the burglary rates dropped 89.4% violent crime rates there today are still 85% lower than the national average.
-Russia, which has very strict gun control has a murder rate 4 times higher than the USA
-Luxembourg banned handguns and made rifles extremely hard to get. Its murder rate went up to be 9 times higher than Germany (which has a decently large amount of gun ownership)
-92% of mass shootings happen in GUN FREE ZONES

Good day and God bless

[OpenYourEyes]

[Replying to post 8 by Hamsaka]

Wasn't Jesus advising his disciples before sending them out to teach his message, knowing they would be in danger along the way? It seems to specific to the situation he was sending his disciples into for guns to be a Biblical issue.

He was addressing a specific situation but his command does reveal a general moral truth; it is permissible to own weapons for protection.

Good point!! Jesus also did not advocate for avoiding problems when your life is at risk. Im willing to turn the other cheek for a non-continuous slap, but if something more severe and life threatening, especially towards kids and women, then im morally justified to defend myself.