No one saw the ressurection

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bjs
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No one saw the ressurection

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Post by bjs »

Ancient of Years wrote: I see no reason to give credence to the resurrection. No one saw it actually happen despite the obvious importance of that in lending credibility to the idea of Jesus being special. In none of the stories does anyone see a resurrected Jesus who is not already a follower of Jesus despite the obvious importance of unbiased witnesses to lend credibility to the alleged event.
I have seen this argument a few times, but I have never been able to make sense of it.

Imagine that you spent years living and traveling with a person. Then you saw that person killed. Absolutely, unquestionably put to death. Then you saw that person alive again a week later and you, as well as all the other people who knew that person well, were convinced that it really is the same person now alive. Would it matter if anyone saw that person come back to life? Wouldn’t that fact that the person was dead and is now alive be sufficient reason to believe that the person came back to life?

To make a more mundane analogy, imagine a place in your yard that is only grass. Now imagine that you walk out to that place tomorrow and find that there is a five foot tall sapling there. You did not see the sapling planted, but it is there now. Does the fact that you did not see the sapling being planted matter in any meaningful way? Would you insist that the sapling is not there because you did not see it being planted?

If someone were writing a fictional story about Jesus then we would expect someone to witness the resurrection in that story. If someone were writing a fictional story that they wanted to pass off as true it would make sense to have Jesus appear to various “unbiased� witnesses to lend credibility to the alleged event.

But if someone where recording actual events then the reason they do record any witnesses to the resurrection is because no one was there to witness it. If anything, this tends to lend a small amount of credence to the story. The gospel accounts defy what expect from fiction and instead seem closer to what we experience in real life.

For debate: Does the fact that the Gospels do not record any witnesses to the resurrection make the story less credible?
Understand that you might believe. Believe that you might understand. –Augustine of Hippo

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Re: No one saw the ressurection

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Post by Tcg »

Wootah wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 5:19 am [Replying to Ancient of Years in post #2]

No one saw Moses and the burning bush ....
No one saw Thor throwing lightning...


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Re: No one saw the ressurection

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Post by TRANSPONDER »

Not as recorded, nor Baal, Marduk or for that matter, Jehovah. It is merely claimed. Of course apologists for any of those gods could invent something ;) "You don't know that nobody saw it". Just as we don't know that nobody saw the resurrection. We could have had a crowd of Jewish schoolkids on a field trip watching wide -eyed as Jesus resurrected "There are many who would give their pocket money to see what thou hast seen, now go thou and do likewise" But because they ran away and said nothing to anyone, we don't know about it and there is no epistemological argument for us to do so.

We can only go with what is claimed which is that all these gods threw lightning which claim fails on a number of levels:

We know what causes lightning
it hits stuff randomly and even (causing some embarrassment) their own places of worship (1)
If one of the lightning -throwing gods is the true one, all the others are false.
Which of course brings us back to the only reason to prefer Biblegod over all the others - Bible validity.

(1) it has been said that you know that if a church has a lightning -rod on, nobody inside really believes God, Jesus or the Bible. Like Speaking with Tongues, they are just pretending.
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Re: No one saw the ressurection

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Post by The Nice Centurion »

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #12]Jesus resurrected in a closed dark cave, which would have made it difficult for a class of jewish schoolkids to stumble into that by chance. .
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Re: No one saw the ressurection

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Post by brunumb »

The Nice Centurion wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 1:40 pm [Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #12]Jesus resurrected in a closed dark cave, which would have made it difficult for a class of jewish schoolkids to stumble into that by chance. .
But it also makes it a lot easier for a concocted resurrection.
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Re: No one saw the ressurection

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Post by Diagoras »

‘Concocted’ means ‘created or devised (a story or plan)’ and I think that’s quite apt, given the chronological order of the Gospels and how Mark was originally different to what we see in modern-day bibles:

https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/dai ... ifference/

Since the longer ending was likely written in the second Century, it’s extremely unlikely that its author had been alive at the time the events it describes took place. Probably at best, a third-hand account.

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Re: No one saw the ressurection

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Post by TRANSPONDER »

The Nice Centurion wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 1:40 pm [Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #12]Jesus resurrected in a closed dark cave, which would have made it difficult for a class of jewish schoolkids to stumble into that by chance. .
Yes...the point being (as I understand it) that whatever the resurrection was (aside I think the accounts are made up) it was not a miracle done by God (unless he was totally incompetent...which would explain a few things...) or he would have ensured that everyone who mattered saw it, so there was no more doubt about than about the battle or Actium, or the Neronian fore in Rome.

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Re: No one saw the ressurection

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Post by The Nice Centurion »

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #16]
Not even the four evangelists got to watch !
“If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. But if you drown a man in a fish pond, he will never have to go hungry again🐟

"Only Experts in Reformed Egyptian should be allowed to critique the Book of Mormon❗"

"Joseph Smith can't possibly have been a deceiver.
For if he had been, the Angel Moroni never would have taken the risk of enthrusting him with the Golden Plates❗"

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Re: No one saw the ressurection

Post #18

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Diagoras wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 10:36 pm ‘Concocted’ means ‘created or devised (a story or plan)’ and I think that’s quite apt, given the chronological order of the Gospels and how Mark was originally different to what we see in modern-day bibles:

https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/dai ... ifference/

Since the longer ending was likely written in the second Century, it’s extremely unlikely that its author had been alive at the time the events it describes took place. Probably at best, a third-hand account.
Yes. The argument was that the original ending had got lost. The Freer logion (two stabs at an ending cobbled together from Matthew and Luke (1) was plainly added on later. Not in earlier Bibles, so I gather. That argument did not work because it would be the first part of a gospel (whether scroll or codex) that would tend to go missing. The excuses as to why the supposed 'earliest' gospel wouldn't trouble to put whodunnit at the end of the detective story because everyone knew it was the butler, anyway, makes no sense. Why write the thing then? No, the later gospels all saw the need for a resurrection and they each wrote one - separately, which is why they contradict, terminally. That there was originally NO resurrection appearance is reliable. That there was originally no angel at the tomb explaining everything can be taken as true as there is no such thing in John. He does have angels (as our long gone pal Venom argued) but they are later on and they give no message or explanation.

What I reckon is for sure is that the original story had an empty tomb and the women finding it. The conclusion that this is proof that Jesus resurrected (in the solid body) is what the Christians hoped everyone would jump to. I won't rehearse my suggestion that the empty tomb shows signs of plot- construction that suggests that the empty tomb itself is a concocted fabrication, but I'm suggesting that the empty tomb itself is not going to stand up as an undeniable fact, whether or not one takes that as evidence for a risen Jesus.

(1) also the same with the Gospel of Peter, which for me sinks the claim that it was an early (and therefore supposedly reliable) version.

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Re: No one saw the ressurection

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Post by The Nice Centurion »

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #18]solid body or new holy body ?
“If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. But if you drown a man in a fish pond, he will never have to go hungry again🐟

"Only Experts in Reformed Egyptian should be allowed to critique the Book of Mormon❗"

"Joseph Smith can't possibly have been a deceiver.
For if he had been, the Angel Moroni never would have taken the risk of enthrusting him with the Golden Plates❗"

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Re: No one saw the ressurection

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Post by TRANSPONDER »

The Nice Centurion wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 5:52 am [Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #18]solid body or new holy body ?

8-) ah well, that's a whole other martshelf of wormcans. A New incorruptible body (and it has been arguethed in the past that Paul saw Jesus not as a one off -resurrection that showed how the dead would come to life, but a one -off raising of the Spirit to heaven rather as Elijah, and apparently Adam (whose spirit came as the son fo man to wipe out Adam's sin by Obedience) and I suspect David, also as a Messianic spirit since Jesus only makes sense in the 'David's son' question if David's Lord is in heaven sitting beside God (and i suspect the gospel - writers don't quite get the point, either).

But enough of my Pet Theory, IF Jesus was arised as a trailer, preview or free sample of what the resurrection would look like..why does his new incorruptible bod. have the crucifixion -marks on?

Simple - for identification. Either Jesus' sweaty and bloodstained body, pushed its' way through a ton of spices like a zombie shovelling its' way out of a grave, and shanked about, looking for a restroom; urgently, as he's been stuck in the tomb for three days (1). OR his perfect resurrected body hologrammed up the CGI crucifixion marks so the disciples knew it was him. Which, since Thomas the Doubter stuck his finger in the wound in the side, makes the Jesus prosthetics -team the envy of Wetha studios.

And the biggest can remains unopened - How do we know that Satan didn't appear as Jesus in their eyes so as to start off the string of Lies that has done the Devil's work ever since, and is still doing it, very effectively. If Satan is the Father of lies and JesusGod is the truth, then the sheer fact that we know that demons don't cause illness should be a tip off that the Bible and its' spin -off religions are all the result of the Big Lie from Daylight before the sun was made, and fresh and salt water Do mix, no matter what the Quran says, and Jesus could not be born both before 4 BC and after 6 AD....and most of the rest of the book...

(i) And no, he couldn't take a Comfort Break while harrowing Hell..

Last edited by TRANSPONDER on Fri Sep 23, 2022 1:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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