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Jolly_Penguin
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:30 pm  Existence of Holy Books as Evidence Against Their Claims Reply with quote

It occurs to me that many holy books claim a God exists that is all powerful and that this God has a message he/she/it wants you to know. But it occurs to me that an all powerful God would not have any need for such a limited and primitive means of communication. An all powerful God could simply make us all know what he is there and what he expects of us*. So the books themselves are at best redundant, and almost certainly misleading.

That we do not all know and agree on what God wants, that we have battles between different religions and different sects, tells me that if an all powerful God exists, he must intend all of this confusion. Perhaps he enjoys it. This conflicts with the messages I keep reading in these holy books.

So I wonder, is the mere existence of these holy books evidence against their claim of an all powerful God with a message he wants us to know?

* - Please note that us knowing what he expects of us doesn't in any way restrict our "free will" to obey or not obey what he wants, an in fact that only with knowing what he wants can we truly make any informed choice and have "free will" on the matter.
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 111: Thu Nov 26, 2015 1:38 pm
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[Replying to post 110 by Jolly_Penguin]

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Or did they rebel in a former life or before their souls were human and they don't remember the rebellion now?


That's ted's beliefs in a nutshell. Before we were even conceived, we existed as spirits and every single human who is now here on Earth, rebelled against God and then got sent here, sans memory of that choice.
Anyone here with a legal background want to chime in? If the courts are convinced that a defendant has amnesia, can the defendant still be prosecuted for whatever crime he's accused of?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 112: Thu Nov 26, 2015 2:36 pm
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^ In our legal system here in Canada, yes, so long as there is intent and action, you are guilty as charged. Sentencing would be very lenient though if it could be established that your amnesia is permanent and you little likelihood to repeat the same crime.

Of course, that is a little different than what the poster above seems to be talking about. Imagine if our justice system decided to completely hide itself from this person with amnesia, this person with amnesia lived the rest of their life earnestly working under a different legal system, believing it just and legitimate, and then at the very end this was revealed to them. I'd think they would then have a valid action against the state.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 113: Thu Nov 26, 2015 2:44 pm
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[Replying to post 112 by Jolly_Penguin]

I had a brief look online about what happens to amnesiac defendants. Basically courts say that as long as there is still strong evidence Mr Forgetful did the deed, Forgetful is of a sound and rational mind during the proceedings, then yes, he can be prosecuted and sentenced, even though he doesn't now remember what he was accused of.
It's one thing if say I'm drunk, run over and kill someone in my car, but because of the drink never remember it. The state could still bring a case against me - there's evidence such as damage to my car, possibly eyewitnesses, video cameras (oh yeah, the body too), etc.
What ted is saying is something else entirely. In a realm that we cannot now examine (so basically the 'crime scene' is inacessible), that we aren't even sure exists or not...where we made a choice that now, no person on Earth remembers.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 114: Thu Nov 26, 2015 4:11 pm
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I would have to question the sanity of a person who would actually rebel against an all powerful God, knowing who and what they are rebelling against. I read the bible sometimes and see the God depicted in it as a tyrant... and I would hope I would have the moral fortitude to stand up to that tyrant despite having no chance of winning... but in reality I really doubt anybody could. That is why I see Christianity's Satan as a heroic literary figure.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 115: Thu Nov 26, 2015 4:21 pm
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[Replying to post 114 by Jolly_Penguin]

*coughs*

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 116: Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:43 pm
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Jolly_Penguin wrote:




Thank you for the more thorough explanation. I'm still not sure I perfectly understand you, but I think I get the gist of what you are saying.


Yes you got the juist but your understanding is off, as expected, I guess.

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He hides himself from some people so they will act sinful, according to their nature, so he can use them as an example for those he does point himself out to? Is that correct according to what you are saying? So these sinful who he hides himself from are there as a cautionary tale basically? Does he then go on and punish these people he hid himself from for not following him even though they didn't know he was there, and maybe even thought they were following him, but got him wrong? That perplexes me.


These people who are blinded by chains of spiritual darkness are those who have eternally rejected HIM and all HIS plans and promises by their own free will decision. They cannot be brought back to HIM nor to repentance. They are the demons of legend and movies, the most utterly evil. But they can disguise themselves as wolves in sheep clothing, that is, they can look and act and worship just like true sheep, like ordinary people. Since the sheep are just as evil with only the difference that they accepted GOD's promise salvation from their sins, their sinful natures make it hard for them to see the truth about these demons; they are easily blinded by their own spiritual blindness and the dazzle. Thus they stand against GOD and HIS plan to judge the demons who look like sheep, or any demonic people for that matter. Knowing that in their heart they are just as evil as the ones condemned already, they stand against the judgement as the work of an evil God.

This situation is resolved by the demonic being allowed to act out their evil and to entice the elect sheep into their sins until the elect are fed up with themselves and from a real and full guilt, repent.

So yes, those that HE hides from are condemned already and will be punished when the last sheep repents unto true holiness, standing with GOD in HIS plan.

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And you then said that the sinful fell into sin by their rebellion to the judgment.... but are these not the people he is hiding himself from, so they don't know there is anything to rebel against?


No, two sets of sinners, those sinners who have the truth hidden from them and those sinners to whom the truth is opened.

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And I still don't see how this addressed the OP. Even the non-sinful, for whom these sinful are being used as a cuationary tale... why do these people get prophets, holy books, and these cautionary people, instead of God just telling them who he is and what he wants, etc?


Because books and prophets can be easily ignored as you know but a display of HIS presence cannot.

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My OP was asking the question why all the indirect, imperfect communication resulting in all the confusion and conflict we see in religion(s) today, and why doesn't God simply make us all clearly understand whatever he wants us to know? You are saying he intends all the conflict and confusion as a way to demonstrate something to his true elect (who we have no way of knowing who that is, since they all sincerely think its them)?


HE uses the indirect communication to fulfill HIS work in the sinful elect even though it confuses everyone else. What those who are condemned already think about spiritual reality is rather moot.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 117: Fri Nov 27, 2015 9:42 am
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^ This is a unique and fascinating perspective you have.

So after you die, you could appear before God and suddenly realize that though you thought you were one of the sinful elect faithful to God, you were actually one of the demons all along, worshiping the wrong God and engaging in your sinful nature doing things you didn't realize were sins (like eating pork or not holding cows as holy), because the right God wanted it that way? Is this not terrifying to you?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 118: Fri Nov 27, 2015 1:10 pm
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Jolly_Penguin wrote:

^ This is a unique and fascinating perspective you have.

So after you die, you could appear before God and suddenly realize that though you thought you were one of the sinful elect faithful to God, you were actually one of the demons all along, worshiping the wrong God and engaging in your sinful nature doing things you didn't realize were sins (like eating pork or not holding cows as holy), because the right God wanted it that way? Is this not terrifying to you?


Back in the day when I was accepting Christ's death for myself and just started to "hear" the Holy spirit, yes, it was something to keep in mind but hardly terrifying. But these early experiences gave way upon my death in the spirit and my re-birth in the Spirit and I've not worried since.

And to tell the truth, if I am condemned or even if there is no afterlife, I can only say that my life as a committed Christian has been the best part of my life in every way and was very much worth it.

As for "doing things you didn't realize were sins" - No one is condemned for the commandments they break on earth, they are condemned for choosing by their free will to be evil in HIS sight - sinful acts on earth are the symptom of choosing to be evil, not the cause of our evil. And no one is condemned from ignorance since all choices to become sinful were in full knowledge of HIS warnings against choosing them, the full knowledge of the consequences for these options, from HIS pov which we trusted or rejected.

The way we live on earth and the things we understand or do not understand as humans have nothing to do with our free will decisions about YHWH's deity and HIS morality. Our human experience merely expresses the outcome of our previous decisions, not our lives before we decided.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 119: Fri Nov 27, 2015 2:14 pm
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So to sum up, my rebellion against God on another plane of existence, of which my conscious mind on earth knows nothing and on which God relies as a cautionary tale for his true elect, is an exercise of my free will and is what damns me to eternal punishment in hellfire, etc?

This concept could make a great book or movie.

-----
Request to Admin: I accidentally "Saved as draft" and can't find the draft folder... so please delete if this turns out to be a double post.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 120: Fri Nov 27, 2015 2:41 pm
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[Replying to post 118 by ttruscott]

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And to tell the truth, if I am condemned or even if there is no afterlife, I can only say that my life as a committed Christian has been the best part of my life in every way and was very much worth it.


Ted, since you consider this a possibility, why bother being loyal to God and this version of Christian theology that you have?
It's one thing if a random Christian says they believe 100% that God will give them salvation because they believe.
This however seems to be different. You're not 100%. You say it's a possibility that God will condemn you, despite your very vocal and fervent beliefs.

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