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Jolly_Penguin
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:30 pm  Existence of Holy Books as Evidence Against Their Claims Reply with quote

It occurs to me that many holy books claim a God exists that is all powerful and that this God has a message he/she/it wants you to know. But it occurs to me that an all powerful God would not have any need for such a limited and primitive means of communication. An all powerful God could simply make us all know what he is there and what he expects of us*. So the books themselves are at best redundant, and almost certainly misleading.

That we do not all know and agree on what God wants, that we have battles between different religions and different sects, tells me that if an all powerful God exists, he must intend all of this confusion. Perhaps he enjoys it. This conflicts with the messages I keep reading in these holy books.

So I wonder, is the mere existence of these holy books evidence against their claim of an all powerful God with a message he wants us to know?

* - Please note that us knowing what he expects of us doesn't in any way restrict our "free will" to obey or not obey what he wants, an in fact that only with knowing what he wants can we truly make any informed choice and have "free will" on the matter.
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 21: Fri Nov 06, 2015 4:07 pm
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Inigo Montoya wrote:
...

Ted, I'm curious. Obviously you're persuaded by this particular view of reality. I notice you never qualify your writing with "I think" or "I believe." You sound very confident indeed. Which is fine; makes this place a spicy environment.


I got tired of being chastised for a lack of certainty in my faith so I speak more clearly though my confidence does not change.

As well, for those I know are picky with me, (but I notice few qualify their posts with 'in my estimation') I often do start with imo, in my opinion, imCo, in my Christian opinion or even imPCECo, in my Pre-Conception Existence Christian opinion.

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What I want to know is this. How sure are you you've got any of this right? Would you ballpark a percentage on your certainty? A 1-10 scale?

Or is it purely faith without an implicit reflection of it in your language?


There is no proof of Spiritual truth, only faith, but 1. since my theology bypasses the blasphemies many sects are built upon because they do not know of our pre-earth existence and 2. it also offers a tighter interpretation of certain other biblical concepts and 3. it is supported and (partially) taught to me in my spirit by the Spirit in-dwelling me whom I consider to be the Holy Spirit, my confidence is very high that this is a superior theology.


Last edited by ttruscott on Fri Nov 06, 2015 5:21 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 22: Fri Nov 06, 2015 4:36 pm
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Jolly_Penguin wrote:

ttruscott wrote:

Some sinners HE can work with and bring them back to faith in HIS reality but others chose by their free will to be outside of HIS reality forever and cannot be brought back in by anything.


You say Choose to be outside of his reality... as if it is a choice we make? Do you believe that those who don't believe in him CHOSE not to?


Yes, this is my contention. That no sinner can remember making any such choice is dealt with adequately for Christians by the assertions of the Spirit in Romans chapter 1 that all sinners have repressed our memories of HIS power and divinity and our rebellion to HIM because we loved sin more than the truth. Therefore a claim to not having made such a choice is moot.


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If God wanted to be known to all, he would be. No ifs, ands or buts about it. He's all powerful, no? So if he wants to be known, he'd be known. Only then could we "reject" him or disobey etc.


Power has nothing to do with it but is a red herring... My claim is that we did indeed know the Trinity as people in a bodiless spirit existence and culture before the creation of the physical universe, (verse support available for the few who care). But when THEY made their claim to be the One True Living GOD, our creator, many took HIM to be lying and to be a false GOD. Since HIS self revelation of HIS deity to us all included a promise that if we accepted HIS claims on faith, that is, an unproven hope, we would then be gifted with the promise of election to be found in the salvation from all our future sins by HIS Son, those who rejected HIS deity were also rejecting any hope of salvation from sin while those who did accept HIS claim to deity did receive the promise to heaven.

What was rejected were HIS claims to deity, HIS promises of election and, for those elect who rebelled against the call for the judgement of those who rejected HIS deity, HIS plan for establishing the heavenly state. NOT HIS actual being. The knowledge of HIS being and our witness to the creation of the physical universe, were parts of (within) the repressed memories that our addiction to sin caused in all sinners.

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That he doesn't make us all know he is there... is telling, is it not? He either doesn't exist, doesn't intend us all to know him, or is playing some games for his amusement.


Since we know that this is the opposite interpretation to what Christianity believes as explained previously I will only say that I will not depart for my belief in YHWH and HIS Christ and all HE has done for me just on your word...

You seem to have ignored my answer in post #6 already, I see no reason to repeat it for your amusement.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 23: Fri Nov 06, 2015 4:37 pm
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Bust Nak wrote:

[Replying to post 10 by ttruscott]

Is this a good place to resume our discussion re: pointlessness of choosing from tabula rasa? Without prior desires "choosing" may as well be a flip of a coin.


Not for me thanks. I found it fruitless...better left as an agreement to disagree.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 24: Fri Nov 06, 2015 4:44 pm
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Justin108 wrote:

ttruscott wrote:

By their free will some have destroyed their capacity to understand spiritual things. GOD did not make this happen by anything within their creation...it all happened because they chose by their free will that which they knew might cause it to happen (rejecting HIM and so becoming evil in HIS sight), but thought that it was better to put their faith for eternal happiness into rejecting HIM as a false god and HIS promise of salvation as lies.

Some sinners HE can work with and bring them back to faith in HIS reality but others chose by their free will to be outside of HIS reality forever and cannot be brought back in by anything.


Please back this with scripture


I can do that but first I want you to tell me why I must go to the work to provide these verses which as an atheist you will just ignore or reject anyway??? You have no respect for scripture so why test me like this? I love answering Christians with scripture but for an atheist this seems like a waste of my time, ???

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 25: Fri Nov 06, 2015 5:05 pm
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Inigo Montoya wrote:

I've asked Ted multiple times for scripture that supports his pre-existence free-will decision- making pre-universe views to no avail. No idea where this comes from

I rather suspect I'm on ignore as many times as my questions go ignored about the decisions we made ..before.. we.. existed


The only request for verses I have ever rejected is a request for a summary list of all the verses for all my theology and my answer has continually been that as there are pages of just verse references and with the explanation of the interpretations it is book length which is much to long for this format,

but I have always said if someone asks me about a point of doctrine that they would like to see the verse for I will immediately and happily provide it. You have never been selective in your questions so I cannot accommodate your request but to suggest I refuse to answer is disingenuous at best...

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 26: Fri Nov 06, 2015 5:12 pm
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[Replying to ttruscott]

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My claim is that we did indeed know the Trinity as people in a bodiless spirit existence and culture before the creation of the physical universe, (verse support available for the few who care


I'm politely requesting verse support for this please

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 27: Fri Nov 06, 2015 5:18 pm
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[quote="Inigo Montoya"]
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Then there is Ted's version, which as I understand it, has exactly one [1] member.


I'm sorry you have missed my assertions that I know others who share my pov...

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Exactly this. It shouldn't be any trouble to explain where this exceedingly bizarre and unique "interpretation" comes from.


Right - the indwelling Spirit.

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Ted. How do you arrive at what strikes me as a view of one?


Arrive at? I was taught.

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How does the same Bible paint such a radically different picture for you then.. well.. everyone I've ever heard on the subject?


They have believed, become committed to, the created on earth theology without even knowing that a pre-existence theology exists or that many scripture verses have been warped due to the created on earth bias. Pre-existence theology is a departure from orthodoxy and is a watershed idea...the farther you go into it, the farther from orthodoxy you get.

It makes more sense to me than the other theologies do which seem to me to be based upon blasphemies.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 28: Fri Nov 06, 2015 5:31 pm
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So can I have some of the supporting verses?

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MPG Recipient Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 29: Fri Nov 06, 2015 5:33 pm
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ttruscott wrote:

I got tired of being chastised for a lack of certainty in my faith so I speak more clearly though my confidence does not change.

There is no proof of Spiritual truth, only faith....

I'm sorry to hear that you were chastised for your honesty. Who did that, fellow Christians? Unbelievers? I respect the honesty of people of faith who do not pretend they "know." I may not agree with their conclusions or their epistemology or methodology or anything else about the substance of their faith. But I don't understand not respecting the honest and courageous statement of faith; that " I may be wrong. I don't have all the answers, but here I stand; this is what I believe and I have faith that I have a genuine relationship with Jesus" [or the Holy Spirit, or whatever].

True faith is often a struggle. It may involve a will to believe. Reducing it to pat answers and a feigned certitude diminishes that struggle. I don't credit myself for believing the Earth is spherical and orbits the Sun. Why should one claim a spiritual 'victory' or moral courage for believing what is obviously true to a virtual certainty?

But faith in the presence of scoffers and mockers, faith when one is in the minority, faith despite admitting the haunting presence of some doubt and uncertainty is something to respect, unlike a blind, unreasoned and stubborn "faith."

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 30: Fri Nov 06, 2015 5:43 pm
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Inigo Montoya wrote:

[Replying to ttruscott]

Quote:
My claim is that we did indeed know the Trinity as people in a bodiless spirit existence and culture before the creation of the physical universe, (verse support available for the few who care


I'm politely requesting verse support for this please


That GOD and the angels inhabit heaven, Revelation 8:2 And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them. establishes a bodiless telepathic culture in heaven between people and GOD. That this is a culture, a society with variations of pov is found in Revelation 12:7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.

That this was in existence before the creation of the physical universe is decided by the (Christian) fact that both the morning stars and the sons of GOD were there to witness that creation and every voice was raised in praise and every knee did bow: Job 38:1-7... 4 “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding,
...
7 When the morning stars sang together
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?


As for what we knew and did not know in our pre-existent state let's look at Isaiah 40:21 - Have ye not known? Have ye not heard? Hath it not been told you from the beginning? Have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?

First of all, from the context (you could read it) we can determine that what they have known, heard about, been told and understood is the truth that YHWH is the almighty sovereign GOD (Isaiah 40:10 ). That is what they have received.

Second, Isaiah asks his audience (that is ye) these questions in a way that demands an affirmative answer. In other words, Isaiah is saying: Ye have known, ye have heard, ye were told at the beginning (and perhaps since then), ye have understood since the foundations of the Earth, that YHWH is the sovereign GOD. Isaiah is not asking questions. He is giving answers.

Next, we should try to determine the time when they received this witness. Once again, so far as this apology is concerned, this question boils down to whether they received it during this life or not. I do not think that I am very far off the mark when I say that the words, if taken straight forwardly, seem to say that this knowledge was received at the time of the foundation of the Earth, which to my mind is definitely prior to conception for everyone, at least since Adam and Eve. Isaiah's answer is an exact match to preconception theology, simple and straightforward.

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