Is the Resurrurredction really a historical fact, or not?

[polonius]

In Paul’s oldest and first epistle, written in 51-52 AD, he states without qualification that:

“Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord,* will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first.g17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together* with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord.� 1 Thes 4:15-17

But it didn’t happen. Thus we must conclude that either Paul or the Lord were incorrect.

How much else of what Paul told us is also incorrect?

Recall, it was Paul who reported the Resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15 written about 53-57 AD.

Was his story historically correct (did it actually happen) or is it just a story that was used by and embellished by the writers of the New Testament?

Since the basis of Christian belief is the historical fact of the Resurrection, let’s examine the evidence and see if the Resurrection really happened or can an analysis of the story show that it is improbable if not impossible.

Opinions?

[Divine Insight]

Since the basis of Christian belief is the historical fact of the Resurrection, let’s examine the evidence and see if the Resurrection really happened or can an analysis of the story show that it is improbable if not impossible.

Opinions?

For me, the "basis of belief" has changed dramatically.

For me, it's not a question of whether or not the resurrection story is true. In fact, that is most likely something that we could never know in any case.

Instead, for me, a far more rational question to ask is whether any "decent God" would have actually been involved in this kind of religious plot?

My answer to this second question is clearly, no.

And therefore I can dismiss this particular religious paradigm as being extremely unrealistic even on a divine scale of things. IMHO, any God who would have been party to these kind of tactics would not be worthy of my respect, much less my worship. In short, if the stories of Christianity are true, then I am sorely ashamed of our creator and it sickens me beyond words that I was even created by such an unethical and immoral "God".

My shame for this God would be extreme. It wouldn't be a God that I could never trust, and certainly not a God that I could ever love.

So if the resurrection is true, then as far as I'm concerned, life is a nightmare of the worse imaginable kind. This would be a God that I could never respect, or honor in any way. This would be worse that having been created by Satan himself.

I realize that my views on this are extreme, and many people do not like my views on this religion, but that shouldn't stop me from speaking the truth. If the Christian God is true, then this is the worst nightmare I can imagine. There is nothing that I could do to change the horrible nature of this God. Surrendering to it out of a fear of its wrath would hardly help anything. On the contrary, that approach would only verify my position.

So there is no hope for this "God". It's a nightmare of a religion that cannot be repaired, IMHO.

This God would be no better than ISIS. It would be a terrorist of the highest order.

So whether the resurrection happened or not is totally irrelevant to me. Because if it did happen it would only prove that we were created by a evil monster. This religion has nothing positive to offer me. At best, all it offers is that if I cower down to this hateful unethical God supposedly this God will spare me its wrath.

Where is there anything positive in that?

A historical resurrection wouldn't help this religion one iota.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by polonius.advice]


"WE" WILL NOT SLEEP

1 Corinthians 15: 51-52 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4: 13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

QUESTION: Does Paul's commentary above (1 Cor 15: 51-52; 1 Thess 4:13) indicate he believed that first century Christians would not die before christ's return?

No. It is important to note that in the above discussion Paul, addressing the topic of the future resurrection, is using a collective "we" to refer to anoited spirit begotten Christians AS A GROUP and NOT to those exclusively living in the first century; this is not at all unusual and is fairly common in the Christian Greek scriptures.

For example : In Paul's letter to the Romans (Chapter 8) he (Paul) speaks about being spirit adopted (verse 14) stating "ALL who are led by God's spirit are indeed God's sons." - NWT but notice Paul that goes on to say "we cry out Abba Father" "WE are God's children" and "provided we suffer together WE may also be glorified together". There are few bible commentors who would suggest that Paul is saying that 2nd and 3rd century Christians do not share that hope of heavenly glorification or that the "we" of being spirit anointed is EXCLUSIVELY for first century Christians and does not apply to Christians into the future.

So when Paul speaks about the "WE" who are still " alive and ... left" at the time of the resurrection there is no reason to limit the application exclusively to century christians rather than spirit anointed christians of later eras.

CONCLUSION: Neither 1 Cor 15:51,52 nor 1 Thess 4:13 are suggesting that Paul is teaching first Century Christians would not die or that they would live to see the future resurrection on the "last day", rather he uses a collective "we" to refer to all spirit anointed Christians as a group and is saying that those Christians alive one earth during that final day would not spend centuries "asleep" in death awaiting Christ’s return but would instantly be “caught up,� “in the twinkling of an eye,� to their glorified position in heaven with Christ. He says nothing to indicate that either he personally or those first century récipients of his letter, would personally be alive to experience the later aspect of this phenonomen.

Further Reading:
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101 ... &p=par#h=6

[polonius]

Let’s start at the beginning. There are several historical sources dealing with the death of Jesus. Outside of the Gospels and Paul’s Epistles, a source thought to be reliable is that of the Roman historian Tacitus Book 15, chapter 44, written about 116 AD.

“Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, but through the city of Rome also, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their center and become popular.�

Note that Tacitus reports that Christ was put to death by Pontius Pilate, the procurator of Judaea from 26 to 36 AD. By determining when Passover would occur just before a Sabbath during these years, it is concluded that Jesus was crucified in 30 or 33 AD.

There are two versions of events which followed Jesus’ death. One claims that Jesus rose on the Sunday he resurrected and ascended into heaven on the same day from Bethany (Gospel of Luke), or ascended into heaven 40 days later from Mt. Olivet (Acts of the Apostles).

But there is agreement on the claim of the Resurrection. It occurred on the Sunday following the crucifixion.

Curiously, there are no writings by any witnesses reporting the amazing fact of Jesus' appearance during the forty day (or a long indefinite period) before his ascension.

[polonius]

[Replying to post 3 by JehovahsWitness]

RESPONSE:

"Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together"

No. Given the plain meaning of words, "We" means himself and those who were also still alive.

[Faithful One]

[Replying to post 1 by polonius.advice]

“Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord,* will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first.g17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together* with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord.� 1 Thes 4:15-17

But it didn’t happen. Thus we must conclude that either Paul or the Lord were incorrect.

First off , this is referring to the rapture not the resurrection of Christ.


The "we " would be referring to any believers left on earth at the time of the rapture. Paul is giving his picture of this. This is stating that the dead will be risen also and all will enter the kingdom together. There is no man that knows when the rapture will come. According to the bible. Surely Paul could hope it would come in his lifetime.

This does not make all in the epistles wrong.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 5 by polonius.advice]

I do believe I supplied supporting texts for my conclusion. I'm sorry I seem to have missed your own texts in counterargument.

JW

[Tired of the Nonsense]

In Paul’s oldest and first epistle, written in 51-52 AD, he states without qualification that:

“Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord,* will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first.g17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together* with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord.� 1 Thes 4:15-17

But it didn’t happen. Thus we must conclude that either Paul or the Lord were incorrect.

How much else of what Paul told us is also incorrect?

Recall, it was Paul who reported the Resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15 written about 53-57 AD.

Was his story historically correct (did it actually happen) or is it just a story that was used by and embellished by the writers of the New Testament?

Since the basis of Christian belief is the historical fact of the Resurrection, let’s examine the evidence and see if the Resurrection really happened or can an analysis of the story show that it is improbable if not impossible.

Opinions?

Paul's reference to the resurrection of Jesus in 1 Corinthians, written as you have pointed out about a quarter of a century after the time frame established by the Gospels for the execution of Jesus, is in fact the earliest historical reference to the story of the risen Jesus. No one recorded any of it at the time it was supposed to have occurred. In 1 Corinthians Paul insists that "above 500" of Jesus' followers saw and communed with the risen Jesus on one particular occasion. This claim, Christians insist, "proves" beyond any reasonable doubt that the story of the risen Jesus is true, since it is unrealistic to suppose that 500 people were uniformly either deluded or lying. And of course this myopic view of "proof" completely overlooks the fact that we do not have the testimony of 500 people at all. We have the testimony of one person; PAUL. And we know by Paul's own admission in his letters that he underwent his conversion to Christian beliefs some years AFTER the execution of Jesus. Paul never met the living Jesus, was not personally present for ANY of the events detailed in the Gospels, and was not personally present for the gathering of the 500 that he refers to in his letter to the Corinthians. So the "proof" that Christians trot out as unmistakable evidence for the truth of the story of the corpse of Jesus coming back to life and subsequently flying away is based on the claim of a man who, although not personally present himself, later claims that hundreds of people interacted with a dead man. Under any other circumstance such an obviously absurd claim would hardly even require the bother of mention, much less the necessity of a refutation.

What Paul's story of the phantom 500 does accomplish however, is to clearly illustrate the manner in which Christian claims and Christian beliefs are constructed on a vast network of interlinked assumptions and declarations, none of which can actually be established to be unmistakably true through recourse to any ACTUAL physical evidence. What we find instead is this interlinked network of assertions, assumptions and declarations, each of which relies on further assertions, assumptions and declarations which are then all mutually utilized as proof to establish the veracity of the entire claim. But at the end of the day there is NO actual evidence to fall back on. The entire edifice of Christianity is constructed on a foundation of smoke and mirrors. In other words, blind unquestioned faith that it must all be true because that's what most Christians declare must be true in accordance with their upbringing.

[tam]

In Paul’s oldest and first epistle, written in 51-52 AD, he states without qualification that:

“Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord,* will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first.g17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together* with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord.� 1 Thes 4:15-17

But it didn’t happen. Thus we must conclude that either Paul or the Lord were incorrect.

How much else of what Paul told us is also incorrect?

Recall, it was Paul who reported the Resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15 written about 53-57 AD.

Was his story historically correct (did it actually happen) or is it just a story that was used by and embellished by the writers of the New Testament?

Since the basis of Christian belief is the historical fact of the Resurrection, let’s examine the evidence and see if the Resurrection really happened or can an analysis of the story show that it is improbable if not impossible.

Opinions?

We who are alive... opposed to... we who have died.

This is a reference to all who belong to Christ who are alive when He returns; opposed to all who belong to Christ but who have died before He returns.

"We who are alive."

If I say "we who are alive when Christ returns to gather us to Him", I mean anyone who is alive at the time that Christ returns to gather His own to Him. I also say "we" in reference to all my brothers and sisters in Christ, past, present, and future. We are one in Christ.


In any case, the sentence is about what happens to those who are alive versus those who have died, when Christ returns. It is not making a statement about the timing of when the Lord returns.


That being said, Paul is still a man, and Paul can make mistakes. He is not the one a Christian is supposed to be following.

Elsewhere Paul does make a statement that seems to indicate that he thought Christ was returning in his lifetime (which is not at all a bad thing... but that is because it is our hope, not because we know the day or the hour; which Christ said no one knows). But in one of the letters I think Paul states that some people should not marry because the time is short. So if there was no scribal error, or misunderstanding on our behalf of what he meant, that was getting a bit ahead of himself. Perhaps someone asked him that if he thought people should get married and instead of stating that they are free to do as they choose, he simply told them what he thought. Which is very different than telling them what Christ has said or commanded.

He even differentiates in one of his letters, stating specifically that 'this is what the Lord says", and then adding something else that is from him, but not the Lord:

To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife. To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her...

**

As for the resurrection part:

Christian faith is based on Christ, and His death and resurrection is the 'sign of Jonah' (among other things); but I'm not sure what criteria man has set in place in order to accept something as an historical fact or not. Though my guess (based on how many do not accept it, lol) is that it is not considered to be an historical fact.



Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[polonius]

[Replying to post 6 by Faithful One]

RESPONSE:

No. It is referring to the second coming which was to take place which Jesus said, "some of these standing here" will see it.

This is confirmed in other NT passages as well.

Speaking to his Apostles, Jesus said:

"But when they persecute you in this city, flee into the next: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone through the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. (English Revised Version)