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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 1: Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:17 am
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The perfect word?

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I was thinking about the nature of the bible...

It seems like there is a wide variety of ways to view it...

Inspired...
God breathed...
Perfect...
Infallible...

I am willing to assume that the bible is perfect word of God.

but....

I am struggling to see the strength in that argument...
I am tempted to say that to some extent it doesn't matter if the bible is perfect....

Here's my reasoning...

God transmits his perfect word, perfectly....

To humans....

Humans are not perfect readers...
Humans are not perfect understanders...
Humans are not perfect thinkers....

Compounding the problem is the fact that there is no real way to ascertain if the perfect message has been assimilated perfectly by the receiver....
There is no answer book in the back of the bible...
You have to guess?

Much of what the bible says is not straight forward...
Artistic liberties are taken by its authors and/or ghost writer...
Metaphor...
Visions....
Parables....
Symbolism...

The bible involves alot of reading between the lines....

I think the 20,000 denominations testify to this idea....

So what does it all mean...

Does it matter that the bible is perfect if there is no perfect people around to read it or understand it?

Perhaps I'm over thinking...
More likely I'm under thinking...

Perhaps you can shore up my understanding of this issue.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 2: Sun Apr 10, 2011 10:43 am
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Hi....

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Perhaps a rephrasing will help....
(I want to involve myself in the infallibility of the bible thread but I fear I may be misunderstanding the concept)

What does it mean to say that something is infallible if the infallible message is....
Vague....(metaphor/visions/parables)
Lost in history/time....(no answer sheet)

I think I understand what the believer means when he says the bible is the perfect word of God....

I struggle to see the strength in the argument...

(Perhaps this is too simplistic but it sorta what I am getting at ....)

Believer....
The bible is the perfect/infallible word of God.

Sara....
Well thats good, what does it all mean/ what is the message....

Believer....
I don't know consult the holy spirit?
It depends on who you ask?
As a Mormon this is the way I see it...
Ect....

How do you rate somethings infallibility if there is no answer key?

Edited cause I suck....

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 3: Wed Apr 13, 2011 2:13 am
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Re: Hi....

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sarabellum wrote:

What does it mean to say that something is infallible if the infallible message is....
Vague....(metaphor/visions/parables)

Then it remains infallible.
The only moment a scripture becomes fallible is when there are blatant undeniable contradictions like:
Quote:

How old was Ahaziah when he began to rule over Jerusalem?
(a) Twenty-two (2 Kings 8:26).
(b) Forty-two (2 Chronicles 22:2).

How old was Jehoiachin when he became king of Jerusalem?
(a) Eighteen (2 Kings 24:8).
(b) Eight (2 Chronicles 36:9).

When David defeated the King of Zobah, how many horsemen did he capture?
(a) One thousand and seven hundred (2 Samuel 8:4).
(b) Seven thousand (1 Chronicles 18:4).

How many stalls for horses did Solomon have?
(a) Forty thousand (1 Kings 4:26).
(b) Four thousand (2 Chronicles 9:25).

In what year of King Asa??s reign did Baasha, King of Israel die?
(a) Twenty-sixth year (1 Kings 15:33 – 16:8).
(b) Still alive in the thirty-sixth year (2 Chronicles 16:1).

Solomon built a facility containing how many baths?
(a) Two thousand (1 Kings 7:26).
(b) Over three thousand (2 Chronicles 4:5).

Ezra 2:64 and Nehemiah 7:66 agree that the total number of the whole assembly was 42,360. Yet the numbers do not add up to anything close. The totals obtained from each book is as follows:
(a) 29,818 (Ezra).
(b) 31, 089 (Nehemiah).

How many singers accompanied the assembly?
(a) Two hundred (Ezra 2:65).
(b) Two hundred and forty-five (Nehemiah 7:67).

Who killed Goliath?
(a) David (1 Samuel 17:23, 50).
(b) Elhanan (2 Samuel 21:19).


The contradictions then raise further serious problems:
Quote:

"Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.
(Proverbs 30:5)



sarabellum wrote:

Lost in history/time....(no answer sheet)

It still is infallible, we just dont have access to it.


sarabellum wrote:

I think I understand what the believer means when he says the bible is the perfect word of God....

I struggle to see the strength in the argument...

Well not every Christian believes that, even some fundamentalists accept the Bible contains errors (When confronted with facts), they assert that the central "Theme" of "Salvation" is infallible.


sarabellum wrote:

How do you rate somethings infallibility if there is no answer key?

Well you can't "rate" it, but by analysing the scripture from an unbiased perspective, you will come to a conclusion on whether its "Holy" (without fault) or whether its interpolated by humans.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 4: Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:01 pm
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I think the comparing of words that aren't exactly the same as contradictions is kind of superficial, in the bigger scheme of things.

It is the thought that is conveyed that matters when it comes to metaphors, allegories or whatever you may call them. When it comes down to it there are plenty contradicting thoughts that cause more confusion than anything.

An example:

Psalms 23 conveys the thought that the Lord is a shepherd, an overseer or a caretaker of his people, who are likened to sheep.

He is likened to a Father throughtout the Bible, a father's role is a provider, disciplinarian, head of the house, rulemaker among others in the traditional family role. Jesus confirms this in Luke 12:22-30

But a completely different thought is brought in through the book of proverbs 6:6-7 in saying be like the ant who have no overseer, ruler, and provides for themselves.

Two different thoughts yet we are told to be of one mind, it cannot happen when you look to books written by men as infallible truth, which is why there are so many different denominations, each claiming to have the "real" truth. They all pull leaves out of that tree to cover themselves with.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 5: Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:32 pm
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The word of GOD is infallible but our interpretations are not... that is why we must
Prov 3:[5] Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. [6] In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. It is the grace of the Holy Spirit which we know by faith that leads us into the truth, not our own understanding of the verses or the traditions of men.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 6: Tue Sep 04, 2018 6:51 pm
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ttruscott wrote:

The word of GOD is infallible but our interpretations are not... that is why we must
Prov 3:[5] Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. [6] In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. It is the grace of the Holy Spirit which we know by faith that leads us into the truth, not our own understanding of the verses or the traditions of men.



Ok, I don't doubt the Spirit guides us into truth, but can you reconcile those two different thoughts as being unified in thought. One says the Lord is your overseer, caretaker, provider. The other says to be like the ants, which have no provider, overseer, or ruler. It is two completely different thoughts, that would take a stretch to reconcile as one thought.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 7: Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:21 pm
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WPG12 wrote:
One says the Lord is your overseer, caretaker, provider. The other says to be like the ants, which have no provider, overseer, or ruler. It is two completely different thoughts, that would take a stretch to reconcile as one thought.


It was said better by my better:

Ecclesiastes 3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;

3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;

4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;

5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;

6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;

7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;

8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 8: Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:51 pm
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I don't know, I just can't see taking my brain out setting it to the side to have others tell me how they "see" things while saying I have to put down my own understanding

The power of reason and to come to an understanding is what God gives us. In my opinion.

Putting down our own understanding, following men who put down their own understanding. Is really just the blind following the blind. Instead of looking for a better understanding through other perspectives.

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord : though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Isaiah 1:18 KJV



How's is what you posted as an answer, an answer? Reason through what I asked instead of just posting irrelevant verses, please. If you can show me what I asked through reason, then I might see it differently, but I just don't think it's possible to reconcile those thoughts as one.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 9: Thu Apr 25, 2019 9:01 am
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Peace to you!


The Word of God is Christ.

John 1:14
Rev 19:3


Christ is the living Word of God. He is the perfect (without error) Word of God.


On the other hand, the bible does contain error (this is true even if the only errors you are willing to accept are copyist or translation errors; of course there is also Jeremiah 8:8).


Christ is also the "key" to understanding those scriptures (how else could He have opened the scriptures to the apostles and disciples? Luke 24:45)



(Scripture is inspired (given 'in spirit'), even though it is still subject to the erring pen of the scribes; copyist or translation errors. But not everything written in the bible is scripture/inspired. For example, Luke did not write his book according to what he received "in spirit"; Luke investigated and interviewed and wrote down an orderly account of the eyewitness testimony that had been handed down to them.)




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 10: Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:17 am
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Re: The perfect word?

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[Replying to post 1 by sarabellum]

HE is with us, 1 Corinthians 3:16 Do you not know that you yourselves are God’s temple, and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?

and HE guides HIS people through the vagaries of life and the Bible:1 Corinthians 2:13...which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.

Pay attention to internal leading and have faith that if you are HIS, all will be well.

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