Resurrected to everlasting shame and contempt

[Yahu]

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Clearly Daniel is speaking of the tribulation. It is often referenced as the 'time of Jacob's trouble' in the OT prophets.

Then the resurrection of the dead, ie those whose bodies sleep in the dust that awake, is mentioned but some get everlasting life while others get shame and everlasting contempt.

We also have a reference to differing levels of glory from individual to individual in the resurrection. Some will be dim in glory while others will shine with glory or even great glory yet others are raised to everlasting shame and contempt.

So would they be those individuals 'dim' in glory or a reference to those cast into the lake of fire for eternity? If they are 'dim', do they reside in the 'outer darkness' with all the other 'dim' individuals, those invited to the wedding feast but lack their wedding garments? Do they lack the reward of robes of righteousness? Are they the poor, blind and naked individuals that fail to overcome the error of the church of Laodicia?

Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Faith by grace gets you into the kingdom but we must BUY gold, white raiment and eye salve. How many get into the kingdom but failed to BUY those things?

Are those raised to everlasting contempt the ones that have salvation but fail to overcome any error within their life, those that just got salvation as fire insurance?

[Yahu]

This is the type of problem you get when you don't know the source language. .

So are you suggesting that none of the bible translators quoted know the source language and that this explains their erroneous English rendition which you have corrected by changing the English word order? In short are you suggesting that your changing the word order in English (and claiming that is what the scripture said (in English) is based on a Superior knowledge of Hebrew? If so, feel free to substentiate your claim.

As it is, I have yet to see a single source where the "everlasting" (olam) is linked with BOTH shame and contempt. It seems evident this is because of the word order of the the original Hebrew. I readily admit I do not speak or read Hebrew but I am not incapable of understanding and explination, so if you do speak ancient Hebrew and can justify your, to say the least, somewhat singular position on how the English SHOULD be rendered I await the hebrew lesson with anticipation.


http://biblehub.com/text/daniel/12-2.htm

New International Version
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

New Living Translation
Many of those whose bodies lie dead and buried will rise up, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting disgrace.

English Standard Version
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

New American Standard Bible
"Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

King James Bible
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to eternal life, and some to shame and eternal contempt.

International Standard Version
Many of those who are sleeping in the dust of the earth will awaken—some to life everlasting, and some to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

NET Bible
Many of those who sleep in the dusty ground will awake--some to everlasting life, and others to shame and everlasting abhorrence.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Many sleeping in the ground will wake up. Some will wake up to live forever, but others will wake up to be ashamed and disgraced forever.

JPS Tanakh 1917
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to reproaches and everlasting abhorrence.

New American Standard 1977
“And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

Jubilee Bible 2000
And many of those that sleep in the dust of the earth shall be awakened, some for eternal life, and some for shame and everlasting confusion.

King James 2000 Bible
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

American King James Version
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

American Standard Version
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And many of those that sleep in the dust of the earth, shall awake: some unto life everlasting, and others unto reproach, to see it always.

Darby Bible Translation
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame, to everlasting contempt.

English Revised Version
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Webster's Bible Translation
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

World English Bible
Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Young's Literal Translation
'And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches -- to abhorrence age-during

.


JW

And how many of those translations have the 'and' italicized to note it was added for readability in English? You can't make doctrine by the words ADDED by translators so it conforms to English standards!

You are missing the point of this entire discussion. Whether it should be 'shame, contempt eternal' or 'shame and eternal contempt' or 'eternal (shame and contempt)' is irrelevant. The individuals talked of here are NOT the wicked, but people in the kingdom from the tribulation rapture/resurrection. That is NOT the resurrection of the wicked for the final judgement.

It is individuals in the eternal kingdom that will be in shame and be looked on with contempt by others. How does that not conform to scripture for people guilty of false teaching for example? They may have salvation but are in bondage to demonic doctrine and led others into the same bondage. They limited and hindered the spiritual growth of others and face the eternal consequences of those actions.

It is one thing to be led into false doctrines but it has greater consequences for leading others into that same error. One led into false doctrine just looses out on the overcomers reward. Those that lead others into error have a far harsher penalty.

[JehovahsWitness]

Whether it should be 'shame, contempt eternal' or 'shame and eternal contempt' or ' eternal (shame and contempt)' is irrelevant.

If it is irrelevant, why did you make the point?

No, it says, they are resurrected to EVERLASTING shame and contempt. It is hard to feel shame if you no longer exist. Sorry, but your doctrine just doesn't fit this scripture*.

* scripture misquoted

You were the one that used the scripture (misquoting the verse) to suggest that shame can be understood to be "eternal" and thus contradicts a given doctrine.

Whether it should be [...] 'shame and eternal contempt' or ' eternal (shame and contempt)' is irrelevant.

If you are saying word order is irrelevant then that is absolutely inaccurate. Word order is essential in any language (including Hebrew, maybe moreso from my understanding) and yes, in English if you move the modifier you change the meaning of the phrase:

I have hands and dirty feet
I have dirty hands and feet

In this particular case, if you move the "everlasting" to before the word shame you have modified both shame and contempt - and that (as you YOURSELF attempted unsuccessfully to point out) makes a big difference in the meaning of the expression and the support for a "doctrine".

Now I am not saying there are no bible tranlators that have not chosen to place the "everlasting" before both nouns in English (thus conveying the idea that the shame is also everlasting, but I have yet to find ONE. Thus it seems equally reasonable to conclude that there is a reason that bible translators modify ONLY contempt and not both shame and contempt by placing the word "everlasting" after shame in their English translations rather han before and that reason must be in the construction of the hebrew.

If you are suggesting that the "everlasting" in the original language text can legitimately be applied to the noun "shame" (something I have not seen done in any of the English translations I have found to date) then it is logical that supporting arguments be presented with references to the language (Hebrew) and the rules that govern its construction.

The absence of the word "and" in Hebrew is irrelevant since the point is the modification of the NOUNS. Since the word "and" does exist in English and has a function (in this case to separate the two clauses and ensure that only the noun "contempt" is modified), it seems reasonable to conclude there is something in the original Hebrew text (word order, construction, gender ect ...) that JUSTIFIES the decision to place the "and" where is is creating a separation between the clauses. That decision does make a difference in the meaning and suggestion that the translators' decision is erroneous needs to be justified to be convincing.


(while it is possible the word "and" doesn't exist in Hebrew it seems that the concept of addition does - since in the chart I posted (re-posted below) there is a distinction between "some" and "and some" (from what I can deduce is seems to have something to do with the ending of the Hebrew pronoun, but as I said I neither speak nor read Hebrew. I presume you do, if so, feel free to explain the pronoun constructions below (in red).



CONCLUSION Moving the modifier in English changes the meaning of the verse in a fundemental way. From the available translations I have seen Daniel 12:2 does NOT allow for the alternative reading of "everlasting shame".

[postroad]

I wonder what happened to these individuals?


Matthew 27:51-53New International Version (NIV)

51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[a] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

[Yahu]

I wonder what happened to these individuals?


Matthew 27:51-53New International Version (NIV)

51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[a] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

They were resurrected and then caught up into heaven in their glorified bodies. That resurrection equates to the barley harvest feast. Yeshua's resurrection was the 'first fruits' feast. The resurrection of the saints during the tribulation is the wheat harvest feast. The post-trib resurrection of the maryrs and those saved during the tribulation are the 'Fruit/oil and wine' harvest feast. Each of the resurrections equate to a harvest feast.

It is probably that the feasts of Israel at the different harvests are foreshadowing of the heavenly feast celebrations of the individual groups resurrected.

[JehovahsWitness]

I wonder what happened to these individuals?


Matthew 27:51-53New International Version (NIV)

51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[a] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

QUESTION : Were people ressurected when Jesus died?

Matthew 27:52, 53 reads that at the moment Jesus expired “the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.�

It is true this is a perplexing verse and quite ambiguious. Firstly, however it should be noted that the verse speaks not of the "dead" but of the 'bodies of the saints' being raised. Strictly speaking, the account does not say that the “bodies� came to life. It merely says that they were raised up or thrown out. The Greek verb e‧gei′ro, meaning to “raise up,� does not always refer to a resurrection. It can, among other things, also mean to “lift out� from a pit or to “get up� from the ground. (Matthew 12:11; 17:7; Luke 1:69).

Also the “they� (that that went into the holy city) could not refer to the “bodies,� because all pronouns in the Greek have gender and “they� in this case is in the masculine, whereas “bodies� is in the neuter gender.

Alternative renderings thus can read:

“Tombs were laid open, and many bodies of those buried there were tossed upright. In this posture they projected from the graves and were seen by many who passed by the place on their way back to the city.�

and the NWT "many bodies of the holy ones that had fallen asleep were thrown up, (and persons, coming out from among the memorial tombs after his being raised up, entered into the holy city,) and they became visible to many people.�

All of which convey the thought that when Jesus died the accompanying earthquake broke open tombs near Jerusalem and thus exposed corpses to persons who visited the tombs and brought news of the event into Jerusalem.


=======================================...

**The Sinaitic omits the words “and the memorial tombs were opened� and “entered.�

[postroad]

I wonder what happened to these individuals?


Matthew 27:51-53New International Version (NIV)

51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[a] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

QUESTION : Were people ressurected when Jesus died?

Matthew 27:52, 53 reads that at the moment Jesus expired “the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.�

It is true this is a perplexing verse and quite ambiguious. Firstly, however it should be noted that the verse speaks not of the "dead" but of the 'bodies of the saints' being raised. Strictly speaking, the account does not say that the “bodies� came to life. It merely says that they were raised up or thrown out. The Greek verb e‧gei′ro, meaning to “raise up,� does not always refer to a resurrection. It can, among other things, also mean to “lift out� from a pit or to “get up� from the ground. (Matthew 12:11; 17:7; Luke 1:69).

Also the “they� (that that went into the holy city) could not refer to the “bodies,� because all pronouns in the Greek have gender and “they� in this case is in the masculine, whereas “bodies� is in the neuter gender.

Alternative renderings thus can read:

“Tombs were laid open, and many bodies of those buried there were tossed upright. In this posture they projected from the graves and were seen by many who passed by the place on their way back to the city.�

and the NWT "many bodies of the holy ones that had fallen asleep were thrown up, (and persons, coming out from among the memorial tombs after his being raised up, entered into the holy city,) and they became visible to many people.�

All of which convey the thought that when Jesus died the accompanying earthquake broke open tombs near Jerusalem and thus exposed corpses to persons who visited the tombs and brought news of the event into Jerusalem.


=======================================...

**The Sinaitic omits the words “and the memorial tombs were opened� and “entered.�

What a useless book the bible seems to be.

[Yahu]

I wonder what happened to these individuals?


Matthew 27:51-53New International Version (NIV)

51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[a] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

QUESTION : Were people ressurected when Jesus died?

Matthew 27:52, 53 reads that at the moment Jesus expired “the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.�

It is true this is a perplexing verse and quite ambiguious. Firstly, however it should be noted that the verse speaks not of the "dead" but of the 'bodies of the saints' being raised. Strictly speaking, the account does not say that the “bodies� came to life. It merely says that they were raised up or thrown out. The Greek verb e‧gei′ro, meaning to “raise up,� does not always refer to a resurrection. It can, among other things, also mean to “lift out� from a pit or to “get up� from the ground. (Matthew 12:11; 17:7; Luke 1:69).

Also the “they� (that that went into the holy city) could not refer to the “bodies,� because all pronouns in the Greek have gender and “they� in this case is in the masculine, whereas “bodies� is in the neuter gender.

Alternative renderings thus can read:

“Tombs were laid open, and many bodies of those buried there were tossed upright. In this posture they projected from the graves and were seen by many who passed by the place on their way back to the city.�

and the NWT "many bodies of the holy ones that had fallen asleep were thrown up, (and persons, coming out from among the memorial tombs after his being raised up, entered into the holy city,) and they became visible to many people.�

All of which convey the thought that when Jesus died the accompanying earthquake broke open tombs near Jerusalem and thus exposed corpses to persons who visited the tombs and brought news of the event into Jerusalem.

That just proves how badly bias the NWT is.

[Yahu]

What a useless book the bible seems to be.

Yet in the Theology, Doctrine and Dogma subforum, it is to be taken as authoritative, ie absolute truth for the discussions here.

Comments on how useless the bible is, should be limited to the other subforums like the Apologetics subforum.

[postroad]

What a useless book the bible seems to be.

Yet in the Theology, Doctrine and Dogma subforum, it is to be taken as authoritative, ie absolute truth for the discussions here.

Comments on how useless the bible is, should be limited to the other subforums like the Apologetics subforum.

What's the point? The translators have it completely wrong apparently.

[Yahu]

What a useless book the bible seems to be.

Yet in the Theology, Doctrine and Dogma subforum, it is to be taken as authoritative, ie absolute truth for the discussions here.

Comments on how useless the bible is, should be limited to the other subforums like the Apologetics subforum.

What's the point? The translators have it completely wrong apparently.

Well you realize you were responded to the Jehovah's Witnesses translation that is totally bias by their ridiculous doctrines. Nobody but the JWs even use the NWT.

It helps when you can actually go back and read the original language. Granted I took Hebrew but not Greek.