Where Are Some REAL Christian Artifacts?

[SkyChief]

Helena, mother of Constantine, traveled to the holy land around 327 a.d. and discovered remnants of three crosses which were used to crucify Jesus and 2 thieves [Dismas and Gestas].

In a miraculous revelation, the "True Cross" was revealed to Helena. She then took a splinter of the cross which Jesus was crucified on.

In 2002, this "True Cross" splinter was carbon-14 dated which proved that it was a fake. The splinter of wood was found to have been made between 980 and 1146 AD.

The Shroud of Turin, another coveted Christian artifact, was also found to be fake. Carbon-14 dating conducted in 1988 proved the shroud cloth was created during the 13th or 14th centuries AD. Its a forgery, too.

My question is, are there any real Christian artifacts?

It would be nice to have some documentation of Jesus' existence during the time that he was alive. Sadly, there is none.

The only accounts we have of Jesus were written decades after his death, and nearly half of these "gospels" are considered forgeries, as well.

To date, all we have are fakes and forgeries.

There must be some tangible evidence that Jesus existed.

Throw me a bone... Anyone...

[Willum]

[Replying to post 1 by SkyChief]

You're right, it all strikes one as propaganda, doesn't it?
There are no artifacts, as artifacts would be proof, and proof would mean you don't need faith.

It seems, with your light shown on the issue, that God, assuming he really does exist, has betrayed us all by providing an unverifiable "flash in the pan," and then expecting us to believe what would otherwise be, 'utter nonsense.'

How could an entity commit a race to an eternity of suffering based on the all or nothing crux of faith in something that could easily be made up by men to collect tithes, or the more likely scenario, it is as it is, without anything divine.

I think we all must acknowledge that we have all been fooled for a very long time by unscrupulous men taking advantage of our desire for there to be something greater.

[Goose]

My question is, are there any real Christian artifacts?

Christian artifacts or artifacts for Jesus? Tell us what artifacts you would expect there to be for Jesus if that is what you are asking.

It would be nice to have some documentation of Jesus' existence during the time that he was alive. Sadly, there is none.

Yes this would be nice. It would also be nice to have some documentation of a numerous people from antiquity written during the time they existed as well, for example Alexander the Great. Sadly, there is none either.

The only accounts we have of Jesus were written decades after his death, and nearly half of these "gospels" are considered forgeries, as well.

Written a only few decades after is actually quite early by ancient standards. Many of the biographies of notable people in antiquity come down to us centuries later.

To date, all we have are fakes and forgeries.

What is it about say the Gospel of Mark or the genuine letters of Pal that make you think they are forgeries? Feel free to present your argument.

There must be some tangible evidence that Jesus existed.

Throw me a bone... Anyone...

I'll throw you more than a bone. The letters of Paul, a contemporary to Jesus, and four biographies written within the lifetime of possible witnesses.

[Willum]

[Replying to Goose]
Goose stated:

Yes this would be nice. It would also be nice to have some documentation of a numerous people from antiquity written during the time they existed as well, for example Alexander the Great. Sadly, there is none either.

I am sorry, but there IS plenty of documentation and recording of much less important people than Alexander the Great. It is all a matter of who and what you are interested in. Records began becoming 'good' with the invention of paper. Before that brass tablets and sheepskin.

Here's a fav of mine, recording MUCH LESS important people than an alleged Jesus, in their own times...
[Quacks of the Roman Empire]

Goose stated:

Written a only few decades after is actually quite early by ancient standards. Many of the biographies of notable people in antiquity come down to us centuries later.

Immediately was on time in ancient standards. You've made quite an intuitive and reasonable sounding claim. But I am afraid the practices you speak of, are very much the same as they are now. How many biographies does Obama have for example? How many biogrphies are written about Peyton Randolph of Virginia? A very important person...

[JehovahsWitness]

There must be some tangible evidence that Jesus existed.

Written records remain the main source of establishing whether individuals existed or not, especially "commoners" (as was the case of Jesus). There exist four independently written biblical records of Jesus existence (as well as some non-biblical references to Jesus as a historical figure);

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

[SkyChief]

Christian artifacts or artifacts for Jesus? Tell us what artifacts you would expect there to be for Jesus if that is what you are asking.

I wouldn't really expect any artifacts, but something... anything tangible that would provide the slightest evidence that Jesus was real.

Maybe something as simple as a few words written by Jesus. I find it incredible that Jesus didn't possess the presence-of-mind to write down at least some of his teachings. He knew He was the son of God. It makes no sense that he wouldn't want any written record of his teachings.

Its even more incredible (to me) that not one of His desciples wrote a single word about Him while he was alive.

Then, decades after Jesus died, Paul has an epiphany and all the memories of His words came rushing back?

That doesn't make any sense.

[Danmark]

There must be some tangible evidence that Jesus existed.

Written records remain the main source of establishing whether individuals existed or not, especially "commoners" (as was the case of Jesus). There exist four independently written biblical records of Jesus existence (as well as some non-biblical references to Jesus as a historical figure);

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

Then there ARE no artifacts, only copies of copies of copies.

[Yahu]

Throw me a bone... Anyone...

Artifacts are like amulets. Yah forbids putting your faith in them. It was only later Catholic concept that relics held power yet much of the pagan ways got moved into Christianity during the time of Constantine. Pagan temples were turned into churches, pagan gods turned into saints.

We have the WORD. That is all we need. Yah rewards blind faith, and doesn't rely on hitting people over the head with His truth. Those that seek Him find Him.

[JehovahsWitness]

There must be some tangible evidence that Jesus existed.

Written records remain the main source of establishing whether individuals existed or not, especially "commoners" (as was the case of Jesus). There exist four independently written biblical records of Jesus existence (as well as some non-biblical references to Jesus as a historical figure);

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

Then there ARE no artifacts, only copies of copies of copies.

Did I SAY there are any artifacts? I think my post was quite clear and straightforward. The asker is essentially asking for evidence of Jesus' existence and I pointed out the evidence that exists.


JW

[Danmark]

There must be some tangible evidence that Jesus existed.

Written records remain the main source of establishing whether individuals existed or not, especially "commoners" (as was the case of Jesus). There exist four independently written biblical records of Jesus existence (as well as some non-biblical references to Jesus as a historical figure);

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

Then there ARE no artifacts, only copies of copies of copies.

Did I SAY there are any artifacts? I think my post was quite clear and straightforward. The asker is essentially asking for evidence of Jesus' existence and I pointed out the evidence that exists.


JW

You said there were written records. I think my post was quite clear and straightforward in pointing out you only have copies of copies of copies of these so-called 'artifacts.' A copy is not the artifact itself. It's a copy. Isn't that 'clear and straightforward?'

The so-called 'independent' copies disagree with each other on key points and do not comprise reliable evidence of the truth allegedly stated therein. They are full of triple hearsay by anonymous authors and today would be considered forgeries since they bear the names of people who did not write them. They are, among other things, based on oral traditions, AKA gossip.