Rational and civil debate between members of all religions and world views

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 1: Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:41 pm
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Slavery

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Assuming you are against slavery: how do we justify taxation where a portion of a person's work is taken from them for nothing in return?

Bare in mind a slave has the fruit of their labour taken from them and yet may still indirectly benefit if the master uses some of it to feed and cloth them or build roads for them to walk on.

This isn't so much an anti taxation post but questioning whether we really are all against slavery.

Can we be pro taxation and anti slavery and not inherently hypocritical?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 2: Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:18 pm
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Re: Slavery

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Wootah wrote:


Can we be pro taxation and anti slavery and not inherently hypocritical?


Sure, at least based on true understanding of slavery. For some reason, believers often are motivated to redefine slavery into something that isn't slavery, just as you have done here. It is a very strange phenomenon.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 3: Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:51 pm
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Re: Slavery

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[Replying to Tcg]

Since you have a true understanding of slavery: Help me to understand what i did?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 4: Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:36 pm
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Re: Slavery

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[Replying to Tcg]

I just googled slavery and saw this definition: a condition of having to work very hard without proper remuneration or appreciation.

I remember you placed a lot of weight on dictionary definitions in another thread....

Now did you want to debate the topic or was that all you wanted to contribute?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 5: Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:26 am
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Re: Slavery

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Wootah wrote:

Assuming you are against slavery: how do we justify taxation where a portion of a person's work is taken from them for nothing in return?

The premise that taxation amounts to "a portion of a person's work is taken from them for nothing in return" needs support. You are paying your subscription for the services provided.

Quote:
Can we be pro taxation and anti slavery and not inherently hypocritical?

Of course. Pro taxation doesn't have to mean unfair taxation.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 6: Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:34 am
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Re: Slavery

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[Replying to post 5 by Bust Nak]

My second sentence supports the first one. Just like a slave may indirectly benefit from their labour through housing or food it still makes them a slave.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 7: Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:41 am
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Re: Slavery

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Wootah wrote:

My second sentence supports the first one. Just like a slave may indirectly benefit from their labour through housing or food it still makes them a slave.

One could say the same thing about a customer purchasing food from a grocery store, is a slave of the store; both are giving up something in return for something else. Where do you draw the line, if not along some nebulous concept of fair exchange?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 8: Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:00 pm
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Re: Slavery

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Bust Nak wrote:

Wootah wrote:

My second sentence supports the first one. Just like a slave may indirectly benefit from their labour through housing or food it still makes them a slave.

One could say the same thing about a customer purchasing food from a grocery store, is a slave of the store; both are giving up something in return for something else. Where do you draw the line, if not along some nebulous concept of fair exchange?


The difference is compulsion. Apart from Obamacare, no one is compelling the customer to buy things. Also, even though taxation is compelled by threat of confiscation and/or imprisonment, there is no promise of direct benefit. In fact, much taxation is for the purpose of redistribution, thus the benefiting of others to ones own detriment at the hands of a third party. This latter, under threat of confiscation and/or imprisonment, in any other form, is considered extortion. This places one in a state of servitude, in which a third party has control of ones resources and abilities, i.e slavery.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 9: Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:40 am
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Re: Slavery

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bluethread wrote:

The difference is compulsion. Apart from Obamacare, no one is compelling the customer to buy things.

You say that but you are compelled to pay the asking price for the food you take from a grocery store, on the pain of a beating and/or imprisonment.

The actual difference is the ease of switching to a competitor. If you don't like the asking prices in one store, it's pretty easy to go to another store; if you don't like the asking prices for one utility company, it's somewhat harder to use another company; if you don't like the asking prices in one country, it's often very difficult to switch country.

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there is no promise of direct benefit.

Start from the top: military defence, and its civic cousins, the police and fire department are the big ones that every single person directly benefits from. Transport infrastructures is another obvious one, most of you directly benefits from, even the sidewalk is paid for by various taxes. Social security is another, you may say that is not direct when you don't qualify for help, but then I would point to any insurance that you do buy, you don't get anything if you don't qualify by having your stuff stolen, destroyed or you don't get sick. Peace of mind is a direct benefit.

Or we just skip the details and point out what exactly it is that you are purchasing: the subscription for residency.

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In fact, much taxation is for the purpose of redistribution, thus the benefiting of others to ones own detriment at the hands of a third party.

That's true, but you don't get much of a say on how the owner of grocery store spend the money after you handed it over either, the same thing happens there. Said owner is free to redistribute it to any third party at your detriment. The difference is you have much more control over how the government spends it's revenue, even redistribute some of it to yourself.

Quote:
This latter, under threat of confiscation and/or imprisonment, in any other form, is considered extortion. This places one in a state of servitude, in which a third party has control of ones resources and abilities, i.e slavery.

Which goes back to my original point - the same can be said for a customer purchasing food from a grocery store, he is a slave of the store. Calling one slavery or extortion while giving a pass the other is just an arbitrary line based on the idea of fairness, on what is and isn't worth it.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 10: Fri Nov 23, 2018 7:53 pm
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Re: Slavery

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[Replying to post 1 by Wootah]

If you or your children have attended public school, driven on public roads, used the national currency, or accepted protection from police, firefighters or the military then then the benefits are not indirect.

If you prefer, you may leave your country and look for a place to live where you will provide for your own education, infrastructure, and defend yourself against robbers or foreign powers. Or you can pay your taxes.

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