Are there any gay relationships in the Bible?

Debating issues regarding sexuality

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Are there any gay relationships in the Bible?

Post #1

Post by Checkpoint »

I do not find any, but others do.

Some say David and Jonathan were in love, had sex, and were even married.

They also cite Ruth and Naomi as being similar.

How do you read David and Jonathan, and Ruth and Naomi?

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Re: Are there any gay relationships in the Bible?

Post #2

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 1 by Checkpoint]

The bible does not shy away from stating if individual had sex (including homosexual intercourse, rape and even incest) if these individuals did have sexul relationships scripture would just have said so.

I have heard people try and imply certain passages do refer to sex, in reality there is no reason to conclude the relationships you mentioned were not platonic.

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Post #3

Post by Strider324 »

Since historically it was extremely rare for men in their 30's to be single, I would say there is ample evidence that Jesus and his disciples were likely gay.
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Post #4

Post by Strider324 »

Since historically it was extremely rare for men in their 30's to be single, I would say there is ample evidence that Jesus and his disciples were likely gay.
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Post #5

Post by Checkpoint »

Strider324 wrote: Since historically it was extremely rare for men in their 30's to be single, I would say there is ample evidence that Jesus and his disciples were likely gay.
If so, can you please tell us just what that ample evidence is.

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Post #6

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Strider324 wrote: Since historically it was extremely rare for men in their 30's to be single, I would say there is ample evidence that Jesus and his disciples were likely gay.
Firstly it was not "extremely rare" for men in their 30's to be single. A man wasn't even old enough for temple duty until he was thirty. Abraham only arranged for a wife for his son Isaac when Isaac had reached his LATE THIRTIES. Jeremiah complained when given a commission to be a prophet that he was "but a boy" although he was probably in his mid-twenties.

While women may have married Young for reasons of childbirth, biblical evidence does not indicate that men (who were expected to at the very least learn a trade or be in a position to collect their inheritance to support a family) married early; certainly a man barely 30 years of age (as was Jesus when he began his ministry) would not have been viewed as a anoramity and it is a very flimsy argument to suggest that reaching 30 but being single would have been viewed as indication of homosexuality.
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Post #7

Post by bluethread »

This is one of the complications in societies that blur sexual roles. In a society where sexual roles are well defined, one can be more affectionate with those with whom one is not permitted to have sex with much less chance of misunderstanding. Therefore, indications of strong affection between friends and relatives, i.e. David and Y'honatan. Ruth and Na'omi, have nothing to do with sex. In fact, in the case of Ruth and Na'omi, heterosexual sex as a means of establishing social status and provision for the poor is central to the account. Thus, though Boaz does have affection for Ruth, affection and sex need not be connected. The imperative that affection and sex be invariably connected is a romantic ideology and not a biblical one.

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Post #8

Post by Strider324 »

[Replying to post 6 by JehovahsWitness]

You are simply mistaken.

First, it's irrelevant at what age a few bible figures are alleged to have married, especially those from the OT, since we're talking about the First Century customs of the Hebrews and what the social norm and expectation was.

And the fact is, under Judaism of the first century, girls were still given in marriage as soon as they were old enough to bear children - at 12 years and 1 day as the custom dictated. Jewish boys, presumably being slower in developing than the girls they were allowed to rule over - had to wait until 13.

You can confirm that here:

http://www.gospelgazette.com/gazette/20 ... page20.htm

I especially note this from the article -

"A boy should certainly be wed by the time he was eighteen to twenty."

This was even more true for any Jewish Rabbi, like Jesus. So it certainly would raise eyebrows to see a dozen able-bodied men in their 30's walking around without either a spouse or children.
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Post #9

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Strider324 wrote:You are simply mistaken.

First, it's irrelevant at what age a few bible figures are alleged to have married.
Firstly, it can hardly be irrelevant when the discussion is about bible characters. Furthermore, Hebrew culture had and extremely long history and their culture strongly resisted many of those of surrounding nations, so it's historical traditions were reletively stable. In any case I pointed out features of Jewish culture (minimum age for temple service, the custom that the men have a trade or means of supporting their families) which were part of first century life and most certainly came into play in the attitudes when Jesus walked the earth.
Strider324 wrote:And the fact is, under Judaism of the first century, girls were still given in marriage as soon as they were old enough to bear children.
Unless you are suggesting that Jesus was a 13 year old girl I don't see what that has to do with the marital status of a 30 year old man. Some girls were given in marriage to men twice or even three times or more their age so the youth of a bride does not necessarily have any relation whatsoever to the age of the groom.

Thirdly the link you provided simply alluded to the fact that in Judeaism, children were allowed to make religious vows. It did not even attempt to established a link between this fact and any supposed age for Jewish male marriage. And finally, if you read the page, you would see the writer did exactly what I did, (which you subsequently labelled as "irrelevant") he refereed to the HEBREW BIBLE and the laws and customs therein.

In short the link provided no relevant arguments from first century Jewish culture and did not reference anything that would support early marriage for Jewish males.


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Post #10

Post by Strider324 »

[Replying to post 9 by JehovahsWitness]

"During the first century, however, it appears to have been the general rule that young people who were "of age" could arrange their own marriages. A girl was considered of age at twelve years and one day. The Jewish rabbis set the minimum age for marriage at twelve years for the girl, and thirteen years for the boy. A boy should certainly be wed by the time he was eighteen to twenty."

Please explain then how this is NOT a relevant argument from 1st century Jewish culture and how it does NOT support early marriage for Jewish males - without simply altering the text to suit your agenda.

Also, our current discussion is about my claim that 1st century bible characters being single and fatherless at 30 would have been quite unusual. I have supported that claim as well. You have provided nothing so far in rebuttal.

Jewish leadership - or any other cultural leader - would be grossly negligent if they did NOT encourage marriage and the more important child-bearing associated with it during the 1st century and earlier. Remember 'be fruitful and multiply'? It's a hell of a lot easier to be fruitful during early child-bearing years than later.

Further, please explain why anyone should blindly accept your un-supported opinion over the scholarship cited above, as well as the actual Judaic customs of the time.

Your anecdotal citing of 'some people' who married late is meaningless in the face of what the overwhelming majority of Hebrews were called to do by custom and necessity.
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