What news did Jesus actually bring?

[marco]

Jesus came to give us good news. Jesus died and the world moved on. Given that some say he was God, one would expect he had something profound to tell us. He may have had cures for some illnesses -but he didn't pass them on to us. He gave us no information that science could use. Before him good men were good and bad men were bad.

a. Did Jesus tell us anything we could not have figured out for ourselves?

b. If someone in the 21st century were to ask: What was his message, in clear terms, what might the reply be?

[1213]

a. Did Jesus tell us anything we could not have figured out for ourselves?

Whatever is answered to this can be answered “that could have been figured out by someone else�.

If I say, Jesus is the only one who said:

But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you, that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust.
Mat. 5:44-45

You could say that you would have developed that by yourself tomorrow. And no one would really know would it really happen. So this whole question is like, “when have you stopped beating your wife�.

b. If someone in the 21st century were to ask: What was his message, in clear terms, what might the reply be?

Love is the message. But not just by words but by the example Jesus showed.

[marco]

a. Did Jesus tell us anything we could not have figured out for ourselves?

Whatever is answered to this can be answered “that could have been figured out by someone else�.

I have no wish to belittle your sincerity 1213, and you are right up to a point. Jesus gave good moral instruction but other fine moral leaders could have said something similar.

If all Christ said was effectively what people know, then this doesn't reflect someone who is thought to be divine. It would be excellent had there been something that would cause us to say: no ordinary man could have said that.

When you say the question is like:

“when have you stopped beating your wife�

I think you mean "Have you stopped beating your wife?" for which both a yes and a no bring condemnation. And yes, I will confess there is just a tiny bit of that in my question. But really, I was hoping someone would have produced a startling piece from Christ that had a divine flavour to it.

Love is the message. But not just by words but by the example Jesus showed.

And sadly, few listened to this. Go well

[1213]

If all Christ said was effectively what people know, then this doesn't reflect someone who is thought to be divine. It would be excellent had there been something that would cause us to say: no ordinary man could have said that.

I don’t think any other person has spoken 100 % as Jesus did, but I think the greatest thing that he did was that he actually lived by those words, not just only spoke them. That is what makes him great. However I think it is good to remember that he said he does all by God’s power. So the greatness is actually from God, if we believe Bible Jesus.

I can of myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is righteous; because I don't seek my own will, but the will of my Father who sent me.
John 5:30

[bluethread]

Why would you presume that Yeshua is calling for faith to replace reason? Augment, yes, replace not so much.

Reason cannot possibly explain everything in Christianity. Faith is there where reason fails.

Reason cannot possibly explain everything, period. It is a process and is dependent on the input, GIGO.

Why do you equate acting as a child with abandoning reason? That is not what is called for in the passages you presented. I have always encouraged my children to apply reason, not abandon it.

I don't think Christ was using your children as a template for his statement. Children, uninstructed by someone as thoughtful as you, and particularly "little" children, possess a charming innocence. When they reach the age of reason perhaps they are no longer entitled to the epithet little.[/quote]

Children are naturally inquisitive and tend to question things. I think you are making a presumption that is not in the text, because it supports you opinion.

I used reason to "extract" that interpretation. Isn't that what you are suggesting one should do?

And I commend your use of reason. I used reason too, to get my interpretation. I wasn't suggesting that when we do a mathematics problem, for example, we abandon reason and employ faith. Faith is helpful when it comes to accepting those difficult concepts that I cannot accept. Reason helps you to interpret passages. When you get to something that is of a miraculous nature, you can put your reason aside.

One can, but I'm not sure one needs to.

[marco]

I don’t think any other person has spoken 100 % as Jesus did, but I think the greatest thing that he did was that he actually lived by those words, not just only spoke them.

Mahatma Gandhi would be an excellent rival to Christ. He too lived by his words. Granted he didn't predict where lots of fish could be caught, nor did he walk on the Ganges. We become seduced by Christ's reported miracles.

[marco]

Children are naturally inquisitive and tend to question things. I think you are making a presumption that is not in the text, because it supports you opinion.

Yes, I devilishly cite Scripture for my purpose, but my heart is good. I am hardly likely to make a deduction from the text that doesn't support my view. There was no presumption; just simple exegesis. Not unlike your own.

[bluethread]

Children are naturally inquisitive and tend to question things. I think you are making a presumption that is not in the text, because it supports you opinion.

Yes, I devilishly cite Scripture for my purpose, but my heart is good. I am hardly likely to make a deduction from the text that doesn't support my view. There was no presumption; just simple exegesis. Not unlike your own.

Ah, I used context and basic childhood development theory to deduce my interpretation. What did you use?

[marco]

Ah, I used context and basic childhood development theory to deduce my interpretation. What did you use?

Well that would explain where you went wrong then.

I use the calculating machine that was apparently supplied to me by Yahweh, and if it is working badly, I shall have to complain. But even if it is second rate, it is sufficient for its purpose here, I think.

[matt0981]

And sadly, few listened to this. Go well[/quote]

You are absolutely right Marco,

Love is somewhat a lost art, we throw that word around so much that it has lost its true meaning. And unfortunately, it has become somewhat of a four letter word. I believe the news that he brought was spectacular, so astounding that the Jewish leaders at that time killed him for it.

Although that was the plan all along, he states "No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."

The "good news" was him, at the finality of his death this ushered in a new covenant. The old covenant had passed away, and the people no longer had to sacrifice any animals for their forgiveness of their sin that they had committed.

The message is simple (news) whoever believes in him (Jesus) and the one who sent him (God) will not die but have everlasting life.

Jesus taught a lot of things but I think this is the main message.

[marco]

Although that was the plan all along, he states "No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."

When I argued that Christ allowed his death, I was met with protests. Effectively, then, he committed suicide, and unborn Jews picked up the stigma.

The "good news" was him, at the finality of his death this ushered in a new covenant. The old covenant had passed away, and the people no longer had to sacrifice any animals for their forgiveness of their sin that they had committed.

Death is seldom good news, except as the quietus after a painful illness perhaps. To call torture and death by crucifixion anything other than horror is to abuse our language. I used to chant "Dying you destroyed our death; rising you restored our life," while death went on all round me. The death that most humans fear stayed very much with us when Christ went away. We have invented a new form of death and called Christ the destroyer of that figment. We are masters of self-deceit.

I am reminded of a similar fiction of Caligula who claimed a victory over the ocean when he ordered soldiers to collect shells. He sent them as trophies to the Roman treasury.