Theological gymnastics.

[Elijah John]

1) Theological Gymnastic: God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but monotheism is still claimed.

Simple alternative: The Father alone is God.

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2) Theological Gymnastic: Jesus is entirely human, and entirely God.

Simple alternative: Jesus is an exceptional human being, completely human and entirely devoted to his God.

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3) Theological Gymnastic: God needs blood in order to forgive, but human sacrifice is forbidden, so God became man in order to sacrifice himself to himself on our behalf.

Simple alternative: God does not want nor does He need blood, but only sincere repentance in order to forgive.

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For debate, in each (or any) of these three cases, which is the more a) Biblical and the more b) reasonable alternative?

Please support your answers.

[Elijah John]

1) Theological Gymnastic: God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but monotheism is still claimed.

Simple alternative: The Father alone is God.

What is the Holy Spirit, then? Because it is referred to often enough in scripture. .

Good question. The Holy Spirit is the Holy Sprirt OF YHVH, the Father. The Father is transcendant, entroned in Heaven, and immanent within us and among us in the Holy Spirit.

But the Holy Spirit is not a separate "Person".

Jesus says it his the Spirit of the Father who will speak for us when we are persecuted.

"Of" meaning part of, not separate from.

Jesus was a man filled with the Holy Spirit of our Father, and was exceptional because he was more conformed to the image of our Father than any of us are.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

1) if you allowed yourself you would acknowledge that people form groups all the time to achieve a goal. And in a very meaningful sense the success of any group is determined by how well they act as one to achieve their goals.

And in marriage my wife and I try to be one. Both of us each day work for our famiy's good and her word should be my word and vice versa.

It goes on.

Many things are one but have many parts. Take the human body is my hand part of the body or not?

Why do we call a car a car and not - 4 tyres, a chassis, a engine, ... etc? Because all those parts form one car.

So is it gymnastics to ask you and others to think it through or is it more likely that some topics require thinking sometimes. And should we blame gymnasts just because they are amazing?

[ttruscott]

If the Trinity is "love within Himself for Himself," isn't THAT love directed inward, and not outward?

God's love is displayed outward, towards His Creation.

Each person of the Trinity expressed their love out to the other two and also to their creation.

Fair enough. Roman Catholics teach this as well, and say that God draws his people into the life of the Trinity.

Don't remember this one...

My problem with the Trinity is not that it draws many people closer to God, it's the claim that it is the ONLY theology that brings one closer to God. Plus it just don't make sense to me. And I don't see it as taught by Jesus or the Prophets.

I haven't heard this claim either, by any sect. I guess that it means that the thief on the cross was a Trinitarian and Rahab etc.

As for seeing what is taught, you see from your mind set as do all and how could it be different? It is why people are locked in their sins and only GOD can free them because only He can break a mindset.

I don't think anyone believed in the Trinity in the OT except the ones who wrote the hints about it but probably not all. I think it was part of the 90º turn GOD did at the time of Christ to cleanse HIS religion from those who paid lip service to its laws but had no relationship with HIM, no understanding of HIM at all even unto rejecting HIS Messiah as they accepted their own righteousness.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 11 by Elijah John]

Jesus was a man filled with the Holy Spirit of our Father, and was exceptional because he was more conformed to the image of our Father than any of us are.

How then was he able to be more "than any of us are", do you think?

The NT says he was unique, in that he never sinned. Just what was it that made him the only one in that regard?

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 11 by Elijah John]

Jesus was a man filled with the Holy Spirit of our Father, and was exceptional because he was more conformed to the image of our Father than any of us are.

How then was he able to be more "than any of us are", do you think?

The NT says he was unique, in that he never sinned. Just what was it that made him the only one in that regard?

I think the "Jesus never sinned" notion is part of the myth of Jesus, not the historical Jesus. Historical Jesus scholars see his baptism as evidence of his imperfection. And I agree.

That is not to say that Jesus wasn't righteous, the Bible speaks of many righteous people. (Made righteous by being Godly). Only that Jesus was not perfect either. Only God is perfect.

But Jesus is a shining example of what a fully redeemed and sanctified human being can be.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 11 by Elijah John]

Jesus was a man filled with the Holy Spirit of our Father, and was exceptional because he was more conformed to the image of our Father than any of us are.

How then was he able to be more "than any of us are", do you think?

The NT says he was unique, in that he never sinned. Just what was it that made him the only one in that regard?

I think the "Jesus never sinned" notion is part of the myth of Jesus, not the historical Jesus. Historical Jesus scholars see his baptism as evidence of his imperfection. And I agree.

That is not to say that Jesus wasn't righteous, the Bible speaks of many righteous people. (Made righteous by being Godly). Only that Jesus was not perfect either. Only God is perfect.

But Jesus is a shining example of what a fully redeemed and sanctified human being can be.

I guess that is about what I expected your view to be.

It is a "myth" embraced by Peter, by John, by the writer of Hebrews, and by Paul.

The baptism of Jesus was related to his anointing rather than for any imperfection.

[Elijah John]

It is a "myth" embraced by Peter, by John, by the writer of Hebrews, and by Paul.

And do you give primacy to their POV, is it the Pauline and the Johannine lens you use in order to read the rest of the Bible? (including the OT and the Synoptics?)

Interestingly enough, I have a book called "Mythmaker" Paul and the invention of Christianity.

I guess I have a "lens" too.

[Elijah John]

And YHVH is my LORD and Savior, (and, by the way, that is Biblical, not mockery.) So I am not qualified because I have a different take on Scripture than you do?

Your effort to try to bypass Christ Jesus in the Godhead is notable. It leads me to think that you are not a saved Christian.

I'm glad you are not in charge of determining who is saved, and who is not. I think I will trust YHVH God for that, not you. The name of my God is not YahDough.

Perhaps God will forgive Evangelicals for their attempt to limit His Grace and mercy. Jesus blasted the Pharisee's for things like that.

Besides, I am not bypassing Jesus:

-I worship the God OF Jesus, YHVH
-I pray the PRAYER of Jesus, the Lord's prayer..
-I embrace Jesus' ETHIC, the Golden Rule as a way of life.
-I believe what Jesus teaches about YHVH's Grace and mercy, repenting and being willing to forgive others.

This is not bypassing Jesus, but actually hearing and heeding Jesus, his teachings.

Simple, straightforward without complex and baffling theological gymnastics such as: "God dying to sacrifice himself TO himself"...

Do you think God judges us based on getting our theology "right"?.. Or by our attitudes of our heart towards God and our fellow humans?

[Checkpoint]

And YHVH is my LORD and Savior, (and, by the way, that is Biblical, not mockery.) So I am not qualified because I have a different take on Scripture than you do?

Your effort to try to bypass Christ Jesus in the Godhead is notable. It leads me to think that you are not a saved Christian.

You answered:

I'm glad you are not in charge of determining who is saved, and who is not. I think I will trust YHVH God for that, not you. The name of my God is not YahDough.

Perhaps God will forgive Evangelicals for their attempt to limit His Grace and mercy. Jesus blasted the Pharisee's for things like that.

Agreed.

Besides, I am not bypassing Jesus:

-I worship the God OF Jesus, YHVH
-I pray the PRAYER of Jesus, the Lord's prayer..
-I embrace Jesus' ETHIC, the Golden Rule as a way of life.
-I believe what Jesus teaches about YHVH's Grace and mercy, repenting and being willing to forgive others.

This is not bypassing Jesus, but actually hearing and heeding Jesus, his teachings.

Simple, straightforward without complex and baffling theological gymnastics such as: "God dying to sacrifice himself TO himself"...

Yes, but you do make him fit your theology, which bypasses what you call " baffling theological gymnastics such as: "God dying to sacrifice himself TO himself".

That description is itself a kind of gymnastics.

Do you think God judges us based on getting our theology "right"?.. Or by our attitudes of our heart towards God and our fellow humans?

The latter.

Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up.

[Monta]

[Replying to YahDough]

"Your debate question is bogus. You falsely generalize Christians without even having a good concept of who Christ Jesus is. "

Agreed.

It would be like me telling Hindus their beliefs are wrong.