Israel/Palestine

[Arthur-Robin]

(I could not post this under "Putting Heads Together" sub-forum so I had to put it here, I hope its not outside the forum's subjects.)

Israel/Palestine (everyone else says they don't know how to solve it):

0) The talk of uniting the Palestinians may have some merit, but it could also/alternatively be harmful. Any beginning towards true peace/resolution surely must consider that the Palestinians/Arabs are not a homogenous people but have various origins, so it is necessary to sort out the different groups which make up the Palestinians. Then certain areas could be allocated according to historical criteria: Gaza (Philistines), maj of Trans-Jordan (Ammonites, Moabites, Edomites, Nabataeans), Dome of the Rock (Ishmaelites, Jebusites). The rest of Israel/Palestine/min of Trans-Jordan/Jerusalem would be assigned to the Israelis/Jews esp in S/W and to communities/districts of "Palestinians" (Canaanites) esp in N/E/Fatahland/Sinai. The Israeli parliament & govt should incld all existing polit parties (right/Likud, labour, Kadimah, religious) equally instead of electoral competition. The Palestinian authority should incld all existing groups (Fatah, Hamas, secular, Marxists) equally instead of electoral competition. There should be a combined assembly of Israeli & Palestinian reps/houses, &/or Palest seat(s) in Israeli Parl and Israeli seat(s) in Palest auth.

1) Agreement with the return of the Jews to Israel (leave the West), but end Western support for Zionism. Either: a) pull out completely and leave it up to God to defend them (may not work because risk of nuclear war), b) the West to go into Israel/Palestine (instead of into Iraq/Syria/Afghan) and forcibly sort the 2 sides out (prob won't work if God on their side and cp Mosad terrorism against British mandate), or c) the West to act as a genuine peacemaker/mediator (as opp to present serving Zionist interests).

2) End the Western Christian Crusader claim to the Holy Land since the West is no longer Xtian. Replacement theology wrong.
3) Reform the West's wide open door immigration policies (Arabs/Jews).
4) Stop forcing our bad Western system on other countries. Get rid of this Western system then they would want what we've got. The answer to the World's problems lies in fixing the West first.
5) Encourage interdenominational/comparative religious movements. All religions came from one. ("One World Religion").
6) Ask/listen to what the Arabs and Jews want and why, point out things that are not going to happen. The West are the ones not willing to truly negotiate. Point out facts like Moslems have 3 holy sites (& J-S only 3rd in imptce) but Jews only have 1.
7) Unite Moslem/Arab countries of SW Asia & N Africa into one bloc/region.
8) Grant equal right of Jews & Palestinians (or in the case of Iraq Sunnis, Shiites & Kurds) to control their own cultures & communities. Equality of Jewish & Palestinian land rights/claims (split/share). In some cases right of access of one or the other people to one or the others land.
9) The Jewish temple was not on the highest point of Moriah (Dome of the Rock) so there is no reason why both can't be there "side by side".
10) Encouragement of a Pan(en)theist/Monist/Corporativist/Organic/Folkish/anti-dualist/Theocratic/microcosm-macrocosm/holistic/dialectic movement/philosophy.
11) Point out to Arabs that being too emotional unlike the cold-blooded Jews limits their effectiveness in war.

Zionist visions of a Jewish state stretching from the Euphrates to the Nile may not be totally supported by the bible (interpretation) because it says "Abram's descendents" which possibly includes Arabs (& Xtians) too (Ishmael, Keturah, Edom) though the promise did only pass on to Isaac/Jacob (cp "Esau I have hated").

Xtians say that the Jews have returned to Israel, but only some, most still live in the Western world (New York, Hollywood).

If the claim that the Jews have so greatly transformed the land is so true then why did they not transform the Negeb for settlement instead of nuclear testing?

Refs: MA Murray, D Prince, AN Field, Paxton, Bible, [Osman/Salibi], Koestler, WG Simpson, A Currie, Bram, D Rohl, [Acknowls: Left Behind, UNO, BBC, B Klassen, OAS, KR Bolton, C Misler, JT Chick, Radio Pacific, SPS, Logos/Libronix, J Harwood, M Lacey, M Walker, talk-back.]

*Modern state of Israel (Israelis along coast and Palestinians in Samaria & Judea) is geographically opposite to the ancient nation of Israel betw Joshua & David (Hebrews in interior/hills and Canaanites along coast)!

[McCulloch]

Israel/Palestine (everyone else says they don't know how to solve it)

Your solutions are about as likely to work as any others I've heard. The fundamental flaw is that it assumes that we are dealing with rational people willing to negotiate in their own best interests. Events in the near east repeatedly seem to nulify that assumption. Not that I have any better solutions.

[Cephus]

Unfortunately, there really are no solutions in the Middle East. The Muslims will not stop until Israel is pushed into the sea. They're not interested in talking about it, compromising on it, etc. You have two groups that fundamentally hate each other's guts, lay claim to the exact same land (and they both have a decent claim to it), and both sides are completely unreasonable and irrational about their beliefs.

I still lean toward the fantasy plan of "wipe Jerusalem off the face of the earth and remove the major stumbling block". If the children can't play nice, take away their toys.

[Arthur-Robin]

Thank-you both for your responses/replies.

Sure war may be the only way to solve it, but you can't say mine won't work with out trying it, that is often used as an excuse like oh we won't vote for you because you don't have experience (but under the current system how can you get experience if they don't vote for you?) You/others say you don't know any solutions but that does not mean that it is wrong that I think that there is a solution.

"Ir-rational Hate"/interest is not an impossible irreconcilable obstacle, what we have to do is point to a higher whole.

One could say it would be more profit to wipe Washington DC of the face of the earth rather than Jerusalem (not that I advocate terrorism!) You would have to wipe all 3 sites off to be fair since the Jews only have the one site. Plus I think it is not just Jerusalem but the whole land that is contended (and even then in Islam there are levels of hell for Xtians, Jews, Sabians, Magi, idolators, hypocrits). You would have to wipe out the whole 2 religions except those that convert to whatever you think the right worldview is. My solution is to save as much of the Whole as possible unlike this system which only best serves a semi-artificial minority.

[Cephus]

Sure war may be the only way to solve it, but you can't say mine won't work with out trying it, that is often used as an excuse like oh we won't vote for you because you don't have experience (but under the current system how can you get experience if they don't vote for you?) You/others say you don't know any solutions but that does not mean that it is wrong that I think that there is a solution.

War isn't going to solve it though, unless by war you mean genociding every fundamentalist Muslim and Jew off the face of the planet and turning the entire Middle East into a radioactive glass desert. You are looking at fundamentally irrational people who have irrational belief systems and irrational and completely contradictory desires. Many Muslims will never be happy until every Jew is dead and Israel is returned to the Islamic faith. Many Jews feel the same about the Muslims. There is no middle ground, no compromise, both sides want all or nothing.

One could say it would be more profit to wipe Washington DC of the face of the earth rather than Jerusalem (not that I advocate terrorism!) You would have to wipe all 3 sites off to be fair since the Jews only have the one site. Plus I think it is not just Jerusalem but the whole land that is contended (and even then in Islam there are levels of hell for Xtians, Jews, Sabians, Magi, idolators, hypocrits). You would have to wipe out the whole 2 religions except those that convert to whatever you think the right worldview is. My solution is to save as much of the Whole as possible unlike this system which only best serves a semi-artificial minority.

Hey, considering what our government is like right now, I'll be the first one to applaud if someone dropped a small nuke on Washington DC. Maybe it's time to start over with a completely blank slate. Who knows, maybe it is with religion as well (actually, it probably is, religion is far too irrational and illogical anyhow).

This has nothing to do with "worldviews", it has to do with people being able to reach reasonable compromises without smacking each other in the head with silly religious books.

[Arthur-Robin]

Thanks for your helpful comments. Just one think though: "reasonable compromises" is not right because what if they are wrong? you don't compromise with wrong. Rather "compromise"/synthesis has to be defined to a higher whole.