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logical thinking
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 12:33 pm  Why do you believe in God? Reply with quote

Why do you believe in God?

What specific argument or evidence is it, that persuades you?

Can you please outline the argument or piece of evidence that you believe is the STRONGEST reason to believe in God?

For example, is it the beauty and majesty of trees? Is it the Kalam Cosmological argument? Pascal's wager? Is it that you witnessed what you believe is a miracle? Is it the fact that you think the Bible contains prophecies? Is it because it feels good to believe in something greater than yourself?

Why do you believe in God?
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 61: Sun Jul 10, 2016 11:58 am
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Re: Why do you believe in God?

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[Replying to post 58 by JehovahsWitness]

JehovahsWitness wrote:

[Replying to post 35 by logical thinking]



If the universe has had no beginning but has always existed, then that proves that something can exist; thus proving that something like a god with no beginning (no cause) is plausible.

If the universe had a beginning, it had to have a "cause".


JW


And if it DIDN'T have a beginning, it didn't need to have one. The thing is.. WE DO NOT KNOW anything at all about the CAUSE or the NATURE of the universe.

So, we should STOP PRETENDING that we do.

And IF the universe is eternal, then it could NOT have been created by ANYTHING, let alone a god of some sort.

Smile

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 62: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:24 pm
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Re: Why do you believe in God?

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[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

Quote:
JW posted:

If the universe has had no beginning but has always existed, then that proves that something can exist; thus proving that something like a god with no beginning (no cause) is plausible.

If the universe had a beginning, it had to have a "cause".


RESPONSE:

"is plausible"??? Or "is possible" ???

Or need not exist since the universe is eternal.

That was the position of Aristotle wasn't it?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 63: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:40 pm
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Re: Why do you believe in God?

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[Replying to MadeNew]

MadeNew wrote:

I believe in Christianity because of the specific truth Christianity holds in my own personal life, and the world around me.


Do you suppose that Hindus and Muslims and Buddhists, etc., DO NOT find specific truths that their beliefs hold for them in their daily lives and the world around them to be obvious? Does it seem likely to you that beliefs could last for thousands of years without those who subscribe to them being totally convinced to the exclusion of all reasonable doubt that their beliefs were true and valid? And yet if these other beliefs are false, as they surely must be for yours to be true and valid, then these other beliefs must have in reality been totally invalid and meaningless all along. Which can only mean that the specific truths that their beliefs held for them in their daily lives by generations of devoted believers were entirely imagined for all those many centuries. And yet they never suspected it. To them the meaning that their specific truths hold for them in their daily lives and the world around them seemed completely real and beyond question. To them, believing that a corpse came back to life and then flew away may seem unrealistic, and believing and declaring that someone who died 2,000 years ago is about to return any minute now, despite a 2,000 year record of being dead wrong, might appear to be more than just a little bit foolish and gullible.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 64: Sun Jul 10, 2016 1:26 pm
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logical thinking wrote:

Can you give me an example of ONE group of people that have NOT been scattered, reunited, and that over the ages hasn't seen a lot of strife?

The Italians, scattered throughout the world and united in italy.


By what I know, Jews are the only nation that has been scattered into many nations and after that gathered back to their country.

logical thinking wrote:

Yeah buddy, the great flood didn't happen.


Why should I rather believe you than the Bible?

logical thinking wrote:

This is very very stupid. You should NOT love your enemies! That is very immoral. If you are a righteous person, then your enemies must be evil people. It's wrong to love them. My enemies are pedophiles, murderers, rapists. I do NOT love them. I don't necessarily HATE them. I just want them gone. But I don
't love them. That would be crazy!


Perhaps you have different idea of what love means.

logical thinking wrote:

Are you saying that introspection and honesty are impossible in books written by humans?


I don’t say it is impossible. People usually just seem to tell things so that it looks better for them.

logical thinking wrote:

You're trying to convince me that the Bible is a SUPERNATURAL BOOK WRITTEN BY THE CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE.


“Luke” says in the Bible for example:

it seemed good to me also, having traced the course of all things accurately from the first, to write to you in order, most excellent Theophilus;
Luke 1:3

So I think it is not written by God, at least not entirely. Smile

logical thinking wrote:

So you believe that donkeys ACTUALLY talk, because the stories in the book about the talking donkey are inspiring to you?


I believe what the Bible tells.

logical thinking wrote:

People have differing opinions on the movie The Princess Bride. Does it therefore mean that the story is real?


Are there some group that calls themselves antiprincessbrideists? Are they fighting in multiple debate sites against “true believers”? Where can that be seen?

logical thinking wrote:

Wisdom is the ability to think.


I think intelligence is the ability to think. Wisdom is how one can use his knowledge and intelligence wisely. Or it could be said that wisdom helps person avoid situations where intelligence is needed to survive.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 65: Sun Jul 10, 2016 1:38 pm
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Re: Why do you believe in God?

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Blastcat wrote:

JehovahsWitness wrote:

If the universe has had no beginning but has always existed, then that proves that something can exist; thus proving that something like a god with no beginning (no cause) is plausible.

If the universe had a beginning, it had to have a "cause".


And if it DIDN'T have a beginning, it didn't need to have one. The thing is.. WE DO NOT KNOW anything at all about the CAUSE or the NATURE of the universe.

So, we should STOP PRETENDING that we do.

EXACTLY

People concerned about “origin of the universe” are primarily Apologists attempting to claim they KNOW the origin because ancient storytellers claimed they knew about the origin and supposedly the “originator”.

A FEW astrophysicists / astronomers who study such things propose theories (not claims of knowledge).

Which group presents the more rational position to readers?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 66: Sun Jul 10, 2016 6:59 pm
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1213 wrote:

logical thinking wrote:

Can you give me an example of ONE group of people that have NOT been scattered, reunited, and that over the ages hasn't seen a lot of strife?

The Italians, scattered throughout the world and united in italy.


By what I know, Jews are the only nation that has been scattered into many nations and after that gathered back to their country.
After ancient rome fell, the residents of italy were left without a country of their own, colonized by neighboring countries for centuries. It's not until the end of WWII (incidentally the same time as israel), that italy was recognized as a nation.

logical thinking wrote:

Yeah buddy, the great flood didn't happen.


Why should I rather believe you than the Bible?[/quote] You shouldn't believe either of us. You should form your opinion based on the empirical evidence.

Quote:
logical thinking wrote:

This is very very stupid. You should NOT love your enemies! That is very immoral. If you are a righteous person, then your enemies must be evil people. It's wrong to love them. My enemies are pedophiles, murderers, rapists. I do NOT love them. I don't necessarily HATE them. I just want them gone. But I don
't love them. That would be crazy!


Perhaps you have different idea of what love means.
I don't. But if what you mean by "love" is feel sympathy, be able to see the world through their eyes, try not to harm them, etc, then that's called compassion. That exists in every single human being. The authors of the Bible didn't come up with it.

You don't get credit for inventing something that already existed.

If you disagree, then please congratulate me for inventing the iPhone. Hey, I just invented it! And it doesn't matter tht it already exists.

Quote:
logical thinking wrote:

Are you saying that introspection and honesty are impossible in books written by humans?


I don’t say it is impossible. People usually just seem to tell things so that it looks better for them.
Ok, so it's not impossible for people to be honest. Thanks for admitting it. So even if, jus tlike in millions of other cases, the authors of the Bible are sometimes honest, it doens't make the Bible special.

Quote:
logical thinking wrote:

You're trying to convince me that the Bible is a SUPERNATURAL BOOK WRITTEN BY THE CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE.


“Luke” says in the Bible for example:

it seemed good to me also, having traced the course of all things accurately from the first, to write to you in order, most excellent Theophilus;
Luke 1:3

So I think it is not written by God, at least not entirely. Smile
so it's partially written by God? Why do you say that, again? How do you know God exists? Because there are some passages in an old book that you think are really cool?

Quote:
logical thinking wrote:

So you believe that donkeys ACTUALLY talk, because the stories in the book about the talking donkey are inspiring to you?


I believe what the Bible tells.
Yeah, but WHY? It's just a book!

Quote:
logical thinking wrote:

People have differing opinions on the movie The Princess Bride. Does it therefore mean that the story is real?


Are there some group that calls themselves antiprincessbrideists? Are they fighting in multiple debate sites against “true believers”? Where can that be seen?
No, of course not! Nobody in the history of the world was burned at the stake for not believing in the Princess Bride. So there is no need for a movement that opposes Princess Bride believers.

In any case, why does the fact that people don't like being murdered by religious zealots mean that the Bible is real?

Quote:
logical thinking wrote:

Wisdom is the ability to think.


I think intelligence is the ability to think. Wisdom is how one can use his knowledge and intelligence wisely.
Oh I see. Wisdom is when you do something wisely. And redundancy is when you somehting redundantly.

Quote:
Or it could be said that wisdom helps person avoid situations where intelligence is needed to survive.
Ok whatever. So God is real because in your opinion the Bible has cool tips for living a life where it's not necessary to be intelligent?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 67: Sun Jul 10, 2016 7:04 pm
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Re: Why do you believe in God?

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JehovahsWitness wrote:

[Replying to post 35 by logical thinking]



If the universe has had no beginning but has always existed, then that proves that something can exist; thus proving that something like a god with no beginning (no cause) is plausible.

If the universe had no beginning and has always existed, then God couldn't have created it, right?

If the universe has the god-like attribute of being able to exist without having begun to exist, then it's a God-like entity that doesn't need a creator God.

So, if your God entity (capable of existing without having been created) existed, not only would it not have created the universe because the universe is uncreated, but this God entity would by definition be no more powerful than the universe itself.

Congratulations, you just presented the multiverse hypothesis.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 68: Sun Jul 10, 2016 7:17 pm
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MadeNew wrote:
The scriptures are so blatantly obviously true to me that I have no choice but to believe its truth

"If a man's testicles are crushed or his penis is cut off, he may not be admitted to the assembly of the LORD." Deuteronomy 23:1

You believe that this is true?


"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law." 1 Corinthians 14:34

You believe this is true?

"May the Lord bless everyone who beats your children against the rocks!" Psalm 137:9

You believe this is true?


Do you believe that women are inherently inferior to men? Do you believe that we should own slaves? do you believe that gay people should be stoned to death? Do you believe that there was a great flood?

Really?


Quote:
Also, from my studies, I see that Jesus Christ is really the Son of God. He came and fulfilled the scripture, fulfilling the prophesies. He came and lived and died according to the scripture for the forgiveness of our sins, and He proved His claim as the Son of God by the resurrection as witnessed by many, who later died for that testimony.
Yeah... you may want to continue your "studies".

Anonymous authors STARTED writing the Bible 30 years after Jesus died. The first text containing any mention of Jesus's supernatural powers didn't come until additional decades after that. NOBODY denies that. It's an historical fact.

I, an anonymous person writing decades later, saw John F Kennedy raise from the dead.

What I just wrote above, is just about as credible as the Bible. Some random guy, writing random stuff decades later. That's ALL you have.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 69: Sun Jul 10, 2016 7:20 pm
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1213 wrote:

By what I know, Jews are the only nation that has been scattered into many nations and after that gathered back to their country.

If that was true (which has NOT been established), what would it prove? Perhaps it would be prudent to expand one's knowledge of modern and ancient Jewish people.

The majority of the world's Jews do NOT live in Israel. 40% live in the US, 17% are scattered, primarily in Europe and Russia. That makes a majority of 57% outside Israel. Only 42% of the world's Jews live in Israel.

The majority of the world's Jews are NOT descended from Israelis and/or the Biblical Jews. Many are of Russian and Polish lineage.
http://assemblyoftrueisrael.com/TruthPage/JewsarenotIsraelites.htm
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/hittites.htm
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/13trindx.htm

1213 wrote:

logical thinking wrote:

Yeah buddy, the great flood didn't happen.


Why should I rather believe you than the Bible?

A wise person accepts what is known and shown to be true in the real world. Evidence from many scientific fields and studies is strongly in support of NO worldwide flood “to the tops of mountains” – NO floods beyond local areas along coastlines and in lowlands or river valleys. That does NOT fit the Genesis tale or the previous myths from which it appears to be taken.

Evidence for a worldwide flood “to the tops of mountains” is one book making the claim.

Of course, one is entitled to dismiss all modern knowledge and take the word of ancient storytellers and religion promoters. Some would consider that willful ignorance.

1213 wrote:

logical thinking wrote:

This is very very stupid. You should NOT love your enemies! That is very immoral. If you are a righteous person, then your enemies must be evil people. It's wrong to love them. My enemies are pedophiles, murderers, rapists. I do NOT love them. I don't necessarily HATE them. I just want them gone. But I don't love them. That would be crazy!


Perhaps you have different idea of what love means.

Perhaps you can provide the correct version of what love means – to include evil people, pedophiles, murderers, rapists.

1213 wrote:

logical thinking wrote:

Are you saying that introspection and honesty are impossible in books written by humans?


I don’t say it is impossible. People usually just seem to tell things so that it looks better for them.

Yes, people are likely to tell what “looks better for them”. Therein lies the problem in taking the word of an individual or a few individuals promoting any given cause.

Thus, an astute person does not simply take the word of salesmen of any product or service (including religion) but consults multiple, disconnected sources in search of truthful and accurate information.

1213 wrote:

logical thinking wrote:

You're trying to convince me that the Bible is a SUPERNATURAL BOOK WRITTEN BY THE CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE.


“Luke” says in the Bible for example:

it seemed good to me also, having traced the course of all things accurately from the first, to write to you in order, most excellent Theophilus;
Luke 1:3

So I think it is not written by God, at least not entirely.

Are parts of the Bible written by God? If so, what parts and how can it be known that God wrote them?

If parts (or all) of the Bible was written by humans it is subject to all human frailties and failings – including exaggeration; falsification; inclusion of myths, rumors, legends, tall tales, etc.

1213 wrote:

logical thinking wrote:

So you believe that donkeys ACTUALLY talk, because the stories in the book about the talking donkey are inspiring to you?


I believe what the Bible tells.

If you believe and do what the Bible tells you will soon be in prison if a US resident (and most other civilized nations).

If you believe and do not do, the belief seems rather shallow and pointless.

If you believe and do SOME that is NOT believing and doing what the Bible tells – but is following one's own agenda and cherry-picking biblical passages to justify behavior.

Are you saying that you actually believe that donkeys can / do / did converse in human language?

1213 wrote:

I think intelligence is the ability to think. Wisdom is how one can use his knowledge and intelligence wisely. Or it could be said that wisdom helps person avoid situations where intelligence is needed to survive.

If a wise person is not involved where intelligence is needed to survive, they do not travel in or pilot airplanes (or spacecraft); work in construction trades or farming or logging or law enforcement; explore high elevations or deep water; etc. Only unwise people do those things. Right?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 70: Sun Jul 10, 2016 7:34 pm
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JLB32168 wrote:

logical thinking wrote:
You're absolutely right! The idea that God simply happened or always existed, without any form of intelligent direction, is an absurd idea.
What makes it absurd? Most modern scientists believe that “the singularity” always existed w/o beginning and that matter/energy will have no end. I’ve got a strange feeling that you’re response will be a simple, facile dismissal of “well that’s different.”
Oh, perfect, so we agree that the singularity always existed. Good. So that makes a creating God unnecessary. Because it's possible for things to have always existed without having been created.

Glad we can finally retire the absurd idea that a god is necessary.

The broader point I'm making is that things can either exist without being created, or they cannot. If they can exist without being created, there's no reason to assume a God who created the universe, becuase the universe can exist without being created. And if things CANNOT exist without being created, and God exists, then God was created.

To argue for God, you are forced to simultaneously say that something that exists must have been created AND that something that exists does NOT need to be created. Either way you lose.

Quote:
logical thinking wrote:
Me: Evolution selects for traits that help the species. Religions, specifically Christianity, teach us to care of the sick. No other species does that.
Thee: AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH the ignorance! It hurts so much!
You mock rather than rebut.
Actually I mocked AND rebutted. You just edited out the rebuttal.
Quote:
That’s an argumentum ad ridiculum
It is not a logical fallacy to accurately describe something ridiculous as ridiculous.
Quote:
and you’ve produced one source who says that compassion among the primates exists. I’ll grant you that
Right. You said that animals don't have compassion. I proved to you that they do. You admitted it. Case closed. I was right, you were wrong. Next question.

Quote:
if primate’s intrinsically possessed those traits then why would they create religions that teach the practice of the virtues as the way to heaven?
Manipulative demagogues create religions that appeal to fear and leverage on basic human decency, to control people.

Quote:
logical thinking wrote:
Yes, religion is totally useless, I agree.
Why did man create them, since he already possesses compassion and empathy, if they serve no biological purpose?
Why did man invent cigarettes if cigarettes are bad for you?

People come up with all sorts of bad ideas. Usually it's to make money.

Quote:
logical thinking wrote:
Miracles that HAPPEN may or may not be an interesting piece of evidence.
The OP asked for one argument for why people believe in God. I countered that no one bases their belief in God upon one thing but upon several – one of those being miracles. Whether or not you find it interesting is irrelevant to the question.

logical thinking wrote:
But miracles that didn't actually happen, and instead are just SAID to have happened by ignorant superstitious people, fall squarely under the category of make-believe.
And had it been proved that these alleged miracles were really just fabrications then your point would have merit. As it stands, they’re only make-believe fairy-tales if they didn’t occur and you can’t prove your assertion. I of course don’t have to prove anything because I’ve not asserted anything (which really pisses some of you off since I rarely have to concede anything to you.)
You've asserted that miracles happened. I asserted that miracles didn't happen.

How do we figure out who's right?

How do we figure out if anything in general happened or didn't happen? We look at the evidence. Right?

Now, if I write here that I saw an elephant fly, is that evidence that an elephant flew?

If some guy 3000 years ago wrote that a donkey spoke, is that evidence that a donkey spoke?

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