Discussion of "perfect."

[Willum]

So we often come across the use of perfect and God in the same sentence.
I am finding this to be an Inigo Montoya moment for myself: I didn't seem to find an answer on
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=29019

Can anyone describe how God is perfect, without calling on perfection in the definition. Why and how is God perfect?
Cite an example if you would as well...

Just as a spoiler --
God is perfect because he created the Universe and the Universe is perfect.

Well, the universe isn't perfect, if you catch my drift...

In order to make this debate, I suppose I'll have to take a position -but I really wouldn't mind a roarin' discussion...

Position: God is imperfect because none of his actions can be described as such, and when "perfection," is used it is used definitionally, not descriptively.

(I know, it's weak, but can justify getting the ball rolling.)

[Justin108]

Yes, but this debate addresses the theology of the Christian deity and how perfection would be described in that context.

This is not a matter of context, this is a matter of definition. A perfect entity is not necessarily predisposed to love, especially if the perfect entity is the only entity in existence.

Living things grow and die. Erosion occurs. Stars are created and then explode. Those are all changes and change indicates imperfection.

This contradicts your earlier post

All its actions are the most beneficial/efficient and are morally superior to all other actions. In fact, such a perfect being is unable to deliberate between a perfect action or a lesser one since doing less than the perfect is imperfect and the two are mutually exclusive.

If God created an imperfect world, his actions were less than perfect.

[JLB32168]

I wonder why we make these guesses about what a perfect being might or might not be able to do, using constraints evident in our physical world.

Someone asked the question of what “perfection� meant as applied to the Judeo-Christian deity and people answered the question. What constraints do you mean?

Already it is accepted, with the being's existence, that he can perform miracles that defy logic.

I think that he can perform miracles that defy laws of physics/science. I’ve never heard anything about defying logic. Indeed the conclusions regarding God are quite logical if the premises that inform them might be true. That being the case, one can use logic to make deductions.

[JehovahsWitness]

Demonstrations of his imperfection would be his need to have a rest after his primal labours

#QUESTION Does the fact that Genesis 2.2 says God "rested" on the 7th day mean God can get tired?

No the Hebrew word "shebeth" translated as "rest" in English, essentially means to cease, desist, stop (an activity), so it doesn't necessarily mean to stop because of fatigue. In the the context of the 7th creative day then we can reasonably conclude it simply means God ceased (desisted/stopped) his creative works at the end of the 6th day.


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http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebibl ... .htm#S7673

[marco]

Someone asked the question of what “perfection� meant as applied to the Judeo-Christian deity and people answered the question. What constraints do you mean?

We can reach conclusions as to what is possible or impossible in a bounded system, such as the one we think in. It is unsafe to suppose that conclusions that apply in our world apply to a world that countenances a God.

I’ve never heard anything about defying logic. Indeed the conclusions regarding God are quite logical if the premises that inform them might be true. That being the case, one can use logic to make deductions.

Simply put, you are applying to God constraints that can be deduced in a particular type of world - our own. Such constraints need not apply in his, and as an illustration of this, we can say that the laws we accept as axiomatic, laws on which we base our logic, do not apply to a being with miracles at his fingertips. They MAY - but we would be assuming this.

[JLB32168]

A perfect entity is not necessarily predisposed to love, especially if the perfect entity is the only entity in existence.

We’re addressing a specific perfect entity – the Judeo-Christian one. He is predisposed to love.

This contradicts your earlier post.

Which is that? I said that creation changes – that it can improve and/or deteriorate.

If God created an imperfect world, his actions were less than perfect.

How does God create a perfect world since a perfect world wouldn’t need to be created but could will itself into existence.

[JLB32168]

We can reach conclusions as to what is possible or impossible in a bounded system, such as the one we think in. It is unsafe to suppose that conclusions that apply in our world apply to a world that countenances a God.

Huh?? This response has lots of style but not a lot of substance.

Simply put, you are applying to God constraints that can be deduced in a particular type of world - our own.

Yes. According to Christian theology we can indeed know some things about God and can describe some things about him.

[marco]

This response has lots of style but not a lot of substance.

Then I apologise for not meeting your substantial requirements. What I have written, as Pilate said, I have written.

According to Christian theology we can indeed know some things about God and can describe some things about him.

I can concede this and I am arguing with that picture in mind. However, you are extrapolating on the speculations that are allowed in a theological discussion and I am saying simply that the premises may not be true. Your conclusions may well be valid, but not sound - which is all I am saying.

[JLB32168]

I can concede this and I am arguing with that picture in mind. However, you are extrapolating on the speculations that are allowed in a theological discussion and I am saying simply that the premises may not be true. Your conclusions may well be valid, but not sound - which is all I am saying.

That's what Captain Obvious said.

[marco]

I can concede this and I am arguing with that picture in mind. However, you are extrapolating on the speculations that are allowed in a theological discussion and I am saying simply that the premises may not be true. Your conclusions may well be valid, but not sound - which is all I am saying.

That's what Captain Obvious said.

Ha ha - then your Captain Obvious was a tremendously astute and clever individual.

Was he - ipso facto - an Orthodox believer?

[anontheist]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

JehovahsWitness: Thank you for your response.

* Note my response above was bible based, my answers below are also based on the bibiblical definition of "perfect".

It is not clear to me why you hold the Bible as an authority. I would understand a dictionary or encyclopedia, there is a lot of research done, the authors of the Bible were merely ancient, superstitious, and not very informed people.

But since you mentioned the Bible as your source, I've notice you did not give any references in your response. 



No, God could exist and be imperfect, that just isn't the case.

So, being God does not necessarily mean having the attribute of perfection? (Matt. 5:28)

…but he can have "wants" ie. things he desires/purpose. On the contrary, being perfectly intelligent, with a limitless imagination would mean there would be and endless number of wants to explore. Being perfect means you lack nothing, including an imagination. It is the imagination which permits someone to have purpose and desire. Imagination is not "real" until you make the thing imagined, so having an purose - in your imagination cannot be viewed as evidence of a lack.

So, when you talk about God's perfection, you are suggesting it is only in relation to His intelligence, not to His being perfect as such. In other words, you do not see God as being perfect only as having perfect intelligence?

Because being "perfect" there could be no "wants." What would motivate a desire? If you know everything what could possibly motivate an imagination?

You would know the answer to any question, so your answer is an anthropomorphic response to a being that does not have the same attributes as human beings. Only human beings need or want, because this is necessary for survival, not for something that has no need or desire or want or imagination.

If you have infinite knowledge, you already know all the infinite possibilities, there is no need to experiment, you already know everything. Unless you think God is less than perfect?