Discussion of "perfect."

[Willum]

So we often come across the use of perfect and God in the same sentence.
I am finding this to be an Inigo Montoya moment for myself: I didn't seem to find an answer on
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=29019

Can anyone describe how God is perfect, without calling on perfection in the definition. Why and how is God perfect?
Cite an example if you would as well...

Just as a spoiler --
God is perfect because he created the Universe and the Universe is perfect.

Well, the universe isn't perfect, if you catch my drift...

In order to make this debate, I suppose I'll have to take a position -but I really wouldn't mind a roarin' discussion...

Position: God is imperfect because none of his actions can be described as such, and when "perfection," is used it is used definitionally, not descriptively.

(I know, it's weak, but can justify getting the ball rolling.)

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 10 by JehovahsWitness]

If God were perfect.....

Question 1

1.If God exists, then he is perfect.

No, God could exist and be imperfect, that just isn't the case.

No and yes at the same time.. strange.

Is God perfect, yes or no? You say that it isn't the case that God ISN'T imperfect. So, I guess YOU SAY THAT GOD IS PERFECT.

Then you agree that if God exists, he is perfect. Oddly, you agree in SUCH an odd way. It almost appears that you DISAGREE. But you don't.

When you say "No", but you really mean "Yes", we have to decode that. Makes it harder to understand what you mean.

2. A perfect being can have no needs or wants.

Incorrect. A perfect being can have no needs (since he is complete in himself) but he can have "wants" ie. things he desires/purpose.

WRONG

Why would a perfect being WANT anything ... is he lacking something he doesn't HAVE?

Want:
"Have a desire to possess or do (something); wish for"
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/defin ... glish/want

It almost seems that we would have to quote the entire Oxford dictionary to debate some theists.

Anyone in for DICTIONARY WARS?

On the contrary, being perfectly intelligent, with a limitless imagination would mean there would be and endless number of wants to explore.

WRONG

An omniscient being needs to EXPLORE?... Again, you seem to not consider your position very well. The god that KNOWS everything doesn't NEED to learn anything new.. so, NO EXPLORATION is needed, wanted, wished for, or desired.

Maybe you don't quite understand what "perfect" and "limitless" implies. It's all BEEN THERE DONE THAT for a limitless, perfect, complete all knowing and whole being.

Desire implies a LACK of something, because that's why you WANT IT. If it's not there, and you have to CREATE IT.. it means that your LACKING something.

"A strong feeling of wanting to have something or wishing for something to happen"
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/defin ... ish/desire

So MANY debates with theists devolve to language difficulties.

Being perfect means you lack nothing, including an imagination.

That's RIGHT... but somehow, you manage to stop there... but that stopping makes you VERY WRONG INDEED.

Being perfect means you lack nothing, including an imagination, including LOVE... including people, objects to desire, people to create, LACK NOTHING means LACK NOTHING. A perfect being LACKS NOTHING.. not us, not planets, not fishes in the sea, NOTHING.

If god is PERFECT, it wouldn't WANT or WISH FOR or IMAGINE or NEED or DESIRE JW, either.

It is the imagination which permits someone to have purpose and desire.

IF God is perfect, he doesn't need PERMISSION for anything.

God if perfect isn't LACKING anything, not purpose, not desires, not something imaginative. God cannot DESIRE something, because God, if perfect, HAS EVERYTHING that he "desires". God, if perfect, would already HAVE all the "purpose" he needed.

The word "desire" seems to be tricky.

Imagination is not "real" until you make the thing imagined, so having an purose - in your imagination cannot be viewed as evidence of a lack.

If God is perfect, there is no NEED, no DESIRE to make whatever is being imagined real. IF God is PERFECT, it doesn't NEED to do anything. It's already perfect.

The word "perfect" seems to be tricky.

[Kenisaw]

[Replying to post 1 by Willum]


Discussion of "perfect." Can anyone tell me what this means?

Below is the entry under "perfection" in my bible encyclopedia, maybe it wil be of help

The thought of perfection is expressed through Hebrew terms drawn from such verbs as ka·lalʹ (perfect [compare Eze 27:4]), sha·lamʹ (come to completion [compare Isa 60:20]), and ta·mamʹ (be completed, come to perfection [compare Ps 102:27; Isa 18:5]). In the Christian Greek Scriptures the words teʹlei·os (adjective), te·lei·oʹtes (noun), and te·lei·oʹo (verb) are used similarly, conveying such ideas as bringing to completeness or full measure (Lu 8:14; 2Co 12:9; Jas 1:4), being full grown, adult, or mature (1Co 14:20; Heb 5:14), having attained the appropriate or appointed end, purpose, or goal (Joh 19:28; Php 3:12).

Source Insight on the Scriptures vol II p. 602

Here's the link if you want to read further (its quite long)
http://m.wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200003440



#1 Can anyone describe how God is perfect, without calling on perfection in the definition?

In view of the above, it would mean that God is complete in the absolute sense, he needs nothing and noone to be all he wants to be and achieve all he wants to achieve. There is nothing missing lacking in him.

Then why create imperfection? If it was perfect, needed nothing, and it's existence could not be improved, then the creation of anything automatically ruins the perfection. You can't improve on perfection, so his changes created imperfection in his existence. The god creature can't be perfect anymore...

#2 Why is God perfect? Why? Why is a reality a reality? That's like asking why is "up" up and not down. It just is, "up" has to be ... up or it isn't "up" at all. That's like asking an atheist "Why doesn't God exist? for what reason is he not there?" The question makes no sense, it is what it is. (I might just ask that question here and see what happens... for a laugh). There is no "why" about an absolute because there's nothing that precedes it to cause it to be.

#3 How is God perfect? "How" as in: How does he achieve perfection (see above) or "how" as in in what ways is that perfection expressed?

JW

Any god that creates imperfection cannot be perfect

[Willum]

[Replying to Kenisaw]

In view of the above, it would mean that God is complete in the absolute sense, he needs nothing and noone to be all he wants to be and achieve all he wants to achieve. There is nothing missing lacking in him.

I suppose, but when we say this about God, I still don't know what it is supposed to mean.

It is supposed to be 'good,' in the not-necessarily morale sense of the word, right?
But saying it, or saying instead, 'God is good,' or 'great,' still doesn't mean anything in context.

Or am I missing something.
Scratch that - I know I'm missing something.

V/R

[JehovahsWitness]

Any god that creates imperfection cannot be perfect

Why do you keep implying God has "creaed imperfection"?

JW

[Zzyzx]

.

Any god that creates imperfection cannot be perfect

Why do you keep implying God has "creaed imperfection"?

If a god is credited with created all things and all things are not perfect, then the god has created imperfection.

[Willum]

[Replying to Zzyzx]

Sorry, I really don't know what folks are meaning with "perfection," how then do you go down the imperfect road.

We gotta know what one means - so describe God using other words than perfect.

[JLB32168]

If a god is credited with created all things and all things are not perfect, then the god has created imperfection.

From the perspective of a Christian, that point doesn’t have the import you seem to think it should.

W/in the parameters of Christian theology, something created cannot be perfect since its existence is dependent upon an outside source. In this case, the creation’s source is God. Since that’s the case, nothing created can ever be perfect because it constantly requires someone – in this case God – to will it to exist. Were it possible for God to become distracted creation would simply cease to exist.

“God created imperfect things nyah, nyah, nyah, nyah, nyah� just doesn’t hold much water and is somewhat like, “You’re God isn’t omnipotent because he can’t create a light that’s dark or a dog that’s a cat or green that is blue.�

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 47 by JLB32168]

Your point there about creations not being perfect, in that they require an external source to actualise them, is a moot point. What I believe Z was getting at is that here we have God, God is (supposedly) perfect and then here he goes creating something, and that thing is imperfect. Since there is now something imperfect next to God, this means that the state of the totality of existence has now shifted from being perfect (where before there is just God, who is perfect) to now imperfect (God + a creation that is imperfect).
God's actions have resulted in a state of conditions that are worse than they were before.

[Willum]

OK, so when you talk about God, you say:
God has all the required or desirable elements, qualities, or characteristics.
Nothing could be better than God.

God is free from any flaw or defect in condition or quality.

God is faultless, precisely accurate; exact.

God is absolute; complete.

So, taking the devils advocate stance, and agree with these.

What does this tell us about God, that we should describe him this way. What does it do for us?

God has all the required or desirable elements, qualities, or characteristics,

to do what?

Nothing could be better than God

in doing what?

God is free from any flaw or defect in condition or quality.

What quality or character.

Well, you get the idea...

What does it further tells us? What does being perfect do? How is it relevant?

[Aetixintro]

God has to be perfect for there to be something to separate Heaven and Hell, where Heaven represents soul-completeness, also after Purgatory, and Hell represents moral failure, a fundamental lack in performance.

Heaven can be said to be perfect because otherwise nothing principal would separate Heaven from Hell. If Heaven has to be (soul-)perfect (by compliance to the 10 Commandments and possibly by finishing the Purgatory) then its true master, God, has to be perfect as well.

Please, remember that the 10 Commandments are consistent with sanity-Golden Rule. To live in the name of Jesus is to live by the Golden Rule is to live by the 10 Commandments.

Also note how the 10 Commandments require cognition. Moral blindness belongs to Hell.

Are we progressing?