Why apologetics?

[Blastcat]

Hi gang.


In discussing certain apologetic argument for the existence of God, it occurred to me that I had to guess as to the argument's intent. I know the conclusion is usually something like "Therefore, God". But when an argument is SO bad, with SO many errors of all kinds, I have to wonder why are these apolgosists BOTHERING?

What is the motivation?

Is it to convince atheists that their god exists, because USUALLY, that just HAS to fail. If the actual GOAL of these argument is to convince outsiders to the faith, they all fail SPECTACULARLY. So, why present them? WHY do theists, including Christian theists come in here, for example to "debate" what is, for all intents and purposes NON DEBATABLE?

I know that apologetics can serve to BOLSTER flagging faith... and William Lane Craig, for example, uses his arguments to demonstrate that at least belief in god can be REASONABLE, and possibly even viewed as having no internal inconsistencies... at best....

But PROOF of GOD?

No. Of course not.

There is no DATA that we can observe to their arguments. The data they present are OPINIONS, and BELIEFS. Subjective data does NOT result in some magical objective fact as a conclusion. The hocus-pocus isn't working, guys! I spend a lot of time and effort putting up objection after objection after objection to these arguments, and it seems to NEVER bother any theist. They always "have an answer" that I then have to put up MORE frustrated objections to ... yet again.. here we go again...

Opinions are NOT facts, I type this about twice a day, fellahs!

Subjective is NOT objective, gang, gals and others.

So, when a theist presents an argument, what's the ACTUAL motivation? I have heard a few.. but I would like to ask this to all debaters in here.. atheist and theist. Why do you BOTHER to come in here, and what's the POINT to all of this argumentation? I'm sure that MOST people have GREAT reasons for joining in.

My own are to learn and promote good critical thinking, learn how people think about religious matters, interact with people on an intellectual level, and get my cherished beliefs challenged as much as possible.

I think that people, atheists and theists and everything in between, would greatly benefit from making a "Statement of Intent". We should all know where we stand... to better understand one another, in this fun and quite unique virtual community of ours.

Cheers

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by Blastcat]

Is this just a free outpouring of consciousness or is there a question to debate here? My understanding is that when a new topic is started it must state a clearly defined question(s) for debate. Feel free to correct me if I am mistaken.

Clarification appreciated.


JW

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 1 by Blastcat]

Is this just a free outpouring of consciousness or is there a question to debate here? My understanding is that when a new topic is started it must state a clearly defined question(s) for debate. Feel free to correct me if I am mistaken.

Clarification appreciated.


JW

Here is the question:

"Why do you BOTHER to come in here, and what's the POINT to all of this argumentation? I'm sure that MOST people have GREAT reasons for joining in. "

To clarify a bit, I will rephrase it:

What is the reason behind apologetic arguments.. what's their INTENT, and what is YOUR intent when you are presenting your religious arguments ?

So, it's really a two part question:

1. Intent of apologetic arguments
2. Your own mission statement, or "intent" when you come in here.

[JehovahsWitness]

2. Your own mission statement, or "intent" when you come in here.

Personally I come here to listen and share views relating to religion and particularly the bible. I come to this particular site because it is well managed and well moderated and there are one or two regulars whose posts I enjoy reading.


JW

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 4 by JehovahsWitness]

2. Your own mission statement, or "intent" when you come in here.

Personally I come here to listen and share views relating to religion and particularly the bible. I come to this particular site because it is well managed and well moderated and there are one or two regulars whose posts I enjoy reading.


JW

Listen and share.
Those are noble goals.

You don't come in here at all to debate and find out who has the best ideas?

I am interested in what you would have to say about the first question, too?
What is the purpose of apologetic arguments, in your opinion, any ideas?

[JehovahsWitness]

Listen and share.
Those are noble goals.

You don't come in here at all to debate

The best debates in my opinion are those where those concerned hear and acknowledge (listen) to what the other person has to say and then volunteer (share) points in response. If the above can be considered "debating" I'm all for it.

You don't come in here at all to ... find out who has the best ideas?

Nope, not really.


JW

[Elijah John]

BC, "apologetics" is not merely the attempt to prove that God exists, or to fend off assertions that He does not exist. Christian apologetics is an intellectual discipline that attempts to uphold and defend Christianity as the only true, or at least the best, religion.

I agree with the notion that the exchange of ideas via debate is a good learning experience.

And when done right, that is with civility (which is the watchword for this site) is a very enjoyable pursuit.

One's own ideas may actually change in the process, or at the very least be clarified in one's own mind and refined in their expression.

[benchwarmer]

[Replying to post 1 by Blastcat]

I agree with JW, in that there really is no debate question here, but there is definitely an interesting question. I bet we will still manage to debate something though

As for why I come here:

I like to discuss ideas about religion, specifically Christianity since that is where I came from.

I like to learn things.

I'm interested in learning how to debate and exchange ideas in a respectful way and this site seems well moderated such that flame wars and the usual fallout of internet discussions are avoided.

Maybe I'm hoping for a good argument for the existence of a god. I haven't seen one yet that I find convincing which in all honesty I'm a little saddened by. I hold out hope that there is something 'else' to all this existence, but no verifiable data shows there is.

Even if there is a god, I have a feeling we will all be standing there in final, full knowledge and collectively say 'well, that's kind of hilarious, nobody got it even close to right'.

[Blastcat]

Thanks for sharing, Im learing a lot about you.. that's great.

Listen and share.
Those are noble goals.

You don't come in here at all to debate

The best debates in my opinion are those where those concerned hear and acknowledge (listen) to what the other person has to say and then volunteer (share) points in response. If the above can be considered "debating" I'm all for it.

Debates are usually "for" and "against" a proposition.

But what you describe can be a debate... good debates are civil and stay on point. Good debates are when people understand each other, but don't have to AGREE with each other. Two people who AGREE with each other will not be ABLE to debate.

Debating isn't agreeing.. at least, not initially. People DO get convinced sometimes, by one side or the other. Not often, but sometimes.

I generally write to the READERS.. even though, it may seem that I am writing TO whoever I am addressing the reply to... Right now, I am REALLY intending these words for the SILENT AUDIENCE...

But, if we gain some info along the way, good for us.

You don't come in here at all to ... find out who has the best ideas?

Nope, not really.

Wow... you don't CARE which ideas are better than others?

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 7 by Elijah John]

BC, "apologetics" is not merely the attempt to prove that God exists, or to fend off assertions that He does not exist. Christian apologetics is an intellectual discipline that attempts to uphold and defend Christianity as the only true, or at least the best, religion.

To me, that's KINDA similar.....

1. NOT to prove God exists.
2. Prove that Christianity is the one true, or best religion.

So, one is about God, and the other is about religion.... ok

I agree with the notion that the exchange of ideas via debate is a good learning experience.

Good, I learn a HECK of a lot by them.

And when done right, that is with civility (which is the watchword for this site) is a very enjoyable pursuit.

Well, to me, MOSTLY enjoyable, I still am struggling with frustrations. I'm getting better at it, but wow, did I suck at it at first. I think that Z influenced me .. but it took a while for it to stick.. in that.. I should write for the silent audience, and perhaps NOT expect the best kind of debate imaginable from people. Less expectations, less frustrations.

Struggling, struggling. Im a hot head

One's own ideas may actually change in the process, or at the very least be clarified in one's own mind and refined in their expression.

Yep, absolutely.

Change is GOOD if for the better. Clarification is GOOD... for sure. Doesn't at all matter what side of the fence we are on about a subject.

But.... what IS the point, for example of arguing what religion is best to ATHEISTS?

That's not for us, surely. And yet, I get a LOT of that in here. I just kinda wrapped up a personal ahem "debate" ( and that's debatable ) with a Muslim, who INSISTED on proving to me that his holy book was better than any other holy book. Forget if any holy book is TRUE or not.. he didn't want to hear it.

Weird, huh?