Prayer?

[Lionel20]

I haven't visited the site in awhile. I'm sure this topic has been discussed over and over. But I want to engage, re-engage the forum on the issue of prayer in the traditional sense.

I believe in prayer in a sense of communicating with God - the eternal force from which the fundamental forces of the universe derived.

But I struggle to understand the prayer in the traditional ecclesiastical sense. Is it redundant to pray as a loved one is being admitted into the hospital for surgery 'God guide the Surgeons hands. Or give my loved one a speedy recovery'. Does the employ a God who would otherwise be idle? Or what about the Lord's prayer in Matthew 6, "[May] God's will be on earth as it is in heaven?". What does this mean? And is this possible?

What about "I plead the blood of Jesus over my children's room tonight", does that ensure their safety? If Christians really believe that these prayers offer divine protection why do they purchase alarm systems? Why are many US Christians supportive of a Political Party that obsesses over the 2nd Amendment? The Catholic church in particular, from at least 300-400 AD has launched countless military campaigns in the name of Jesus - which seems a contradiction.

Does anyone really believe in conventional prayer?

[JehovahsWitness]

Is it redundant to pray as a loved one is being admitted into the hospital for surgery 'God guide the Surgeons hands. Or give my loved one a speedy recovery'.

As one of Jehovah's Witnesses I view prayer as communication with God (Jehovah) and believe it is totally appropriate to pray for a successful outcome for an operation or something of that nature.

Does the employ a God who would otherwise be idle?

Not at all, the bible encourages people to turn to God with their worries and burdens, Jesus spoke of God as being "Our Father" and like all fathers, God would therefore want to hear from his "children".

Or what about the Lord's prayer in Matthew 6, "[May] God's will be on earth as it is in heaven?". What does this mean? And is this possible?

Those words are specifically related to God's Kingdom; they are preceded with the request

# Your Kingdom come: This is a request that God's kingdom Government come since it will mean that this our planet earth will be freed from problems such as sickness, cancer, bad housing, pollution unemployment, war, famine and all the other problems that presently plague mankind.

#Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Thanks to that one world government, the earth will be a peaceful paradise, and the earth will be just like heaven.


CONCLUSION The bible presents prayer as open and respectful communication with God. It is scripturally appropriate to pray about the concerns of our heart and express our wish for the best possible outcome. The words often refered to as "The Lords Prayer" is a model that presents topics it is appropriate to pray about including the request that God's government bring about promised changes.



JW


Further reading
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/maga ... -answered/

[OnceConvinced]

But I struggle to understand the prayer in the traditional ecclesiastical sense. Is it redundant to pray as a loved one is being admitted into the hospital for surgery 'God guide the Surgeons hands.

The problem I have now with prayers like this is that in effect you are actually asking God to violate the freewill of the person you are praying over. After all how does God guide the surgeon's hands? Surely he would have to control him in some way.

Many prayers that Christians pray would require God to violate the freewill of people. eg, praying for employment would require God to force an employer to favour a you as a job candidate, praying for change in someone's behaviour would require God to enforce the change in that person, praying for victories (in sports or battle) would require God to either sabotage the opposition or make your/your team play better.

Or give my loved one a speedy recovery'.

There seems little harm in praying for something like this. No one's free will is going to be violated unless the person being prayed over does not wish healing (for whatever reason). However, as you rightfully point out, if it's not God's will that person recover or recover speedily, there seems to be little point in praying for it. God surely doesn't need us to instruct him on what he should do. In fact if he loved the person who is ill, you'd think he'd be eager to heal that person. I know I would be. Unless of course God is not loving and doesn't care, then I would expect him only to act when someone really begged him to.

What about "I plead the blood of Jesus over my children's room tonight", does that ensure their safety?

There is definitely no guarantee of safety.

This prayer is very similar to "Lord, please grant us safe travel as we drive to Timbuktu". These sort of prayers are a classic example of praying for something you are most likely going to get anyway. The chances of you getting involved in a car accident are so remote anyway. Likewise, anything bad happening to your children in the safety of their own home is unlikely too, unless the people they are living with are a danger to them.

So when prayers like this are prayed by Christians, it's no wonder they believe their prayers have been answered and God kept them safe. Odds are that they will be safe even without the prayer!

And even if you are to say "God kept my child safe", how can you really know that? The only way to know for sure is to go back in time, do the same thing again, except don't pray for their safety and see if they get a different result.

Confirmation bias surely comes into play big time here. Nothing happens to your kid, so you believe God has protected them all those nights.

Of course if one night something really bad happens, then there will be lots of excuses made for why God DIDN'T protect the child.

If Christians really believe that these prayers offer divine protection why do they purchase alarm systems?

Exactly. And not only that, but they purchase insurance. Christians show that they don't really trust their God to protect them. I figure they know deep down that bad things happen and God won't step in to protect them just because they're Christians. Deep down they know they're on their own.

Does anyone really believe in conventional prayer?

Certainly not me. I used it for around 40-45 years. Never did any shred of good that I could see. Everything that did happen was a result of my own actions or others.

[MadeNew]

[Replying to post 1 by Lionel20]

I think prayer is more about aligning myself with the will of God, opposed to aligning God with the will of myself.

[Zzyzx]

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I think prayer is more about aligning myself with the will of God, opposed to aligning God with the will of myself.

That is very different from the common Christian practice of praying for (or requesting prayers for) someone who is ill -- or asking for other desirable future outcomes -- which DOES seem like an attempt to influence God to "align" with the wishes of praying people.

[Monta]

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I think prayer is more about aligning myself with the will of God, opposed to aligning God with the will of myself.

That is very different from the common Christian practice of praying for (or requesting prayers for) someone who is ill -- or asking for other desirable future outcomes -- which DOES seem like an attempt to influence God to "align" with the wishes of praying people.

Might be different from common Christian practice, but it is scriptural.

[Zzyzx]

.

Might be different from common Christian practice, but it is scriptural.

Those who ask for "favors" with prayers seem to think their position is "scriptural" too (perhaps citing "ask and you shall receive" Matthew 7:7, or "whatever you ask in my name" John 14: 13-14).

Dueling scriptures?

Perhaps it is a matter of personal preference or opinion (which seems to apply to nearly everything in Christianity).

[marco]

I believe in prayer in a sense of communicating with God - the eternal force from which the fundamental forces of the universe derived. Does anyone really believe in conventional prayer?

Prayer is a communication with oneself. The acid test of a letter being received is that we get word back. With prayer there is never any indication anyone has paid the slightest attention.

Of course people over the centuries have prayed; some killed human beings in their efforts to get a reply. People prayed during the Holocaust and again - no reply. If after a billion prayers we discover NO replies, I wonder what we should conclude.

[marco]

# Your Kingdom come: This is a request that God's kingdom Government come since it will mean that this our planet earth will be freed from problems such as sickness, cancer, bad housing, pollution unemployment, war, famine and all the other problems that presently plague mankind.

#Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Thanks to that one world government, the earth will be a peaceful paradise, and the earth will be just like heaven.

Government is a fine secular term. It is astonishing that nice folk have prayed, as Christ suggested, that "thy kingdom come" so that our planet "will be freed from problems such as sickness, cancer, bad housing.... " and ingrown toenails, but after 2000 years they are still praying the same prayer with the same result. No change. Given these good things will come in God's good time what on earth is the point of the supplication?

[Claire Evans]

I haven't visited the site in awhile. I'm sure this topic has been discussed over and over. But I want to engage, re-engage the forum on the issue of prayer in the traditional sense.

I believe in prayer in a sense of communicating with God - the eternal force from which the fundamental forces of the universe derived.

But I struggle to understand the prayer in the traditional ecclesiastical sense. Is it redundant to pray as a loved one is being admitted into the hospital for surgery 'God guide the Surgeons hands. Or give my loved one a speedy recovery'. Does the employ a God who would otherwise be idle? Or what about the Lord's prayer in Matthew 6, "[May] God's will be on earth as it is in heaven?". What does this mean? And is this possible?

I don't ask for God to do this or that. That means it is MY will, not necessarily God's. For example, Jesus said:

Matthew 26:39

Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."

Therefore, using the example of Jesus, we must pray for God's will to be done regardless the situation and ask for the strength to accept it. Unfortunately, meaning people treat God as if he is on stand-by for emergencies.

God's will on earth as in heaven I believe means God's will for people who trust and obey Him and love Him. His will cannot be imposed on anyone or anything else. Many things on this earth are naturally not His will.

What about "I plead the blood of Jesus over my children's room tonight", does that ensure their safety? If Christians really believe that these prayers offer divine protection why do they purchase alarm systems? Why are many US Christians supportive of a Political Party that obsesses over the 2nd Amendment? The Catholic church in particular, from at least 300-400 AD has launched countless military campaigns in the name of Jesus - which seems a contradiction.

Does anyone really believe in conventional prayer?

We have to be practical in life. We can say pleading the blood of Jesus over children means surviving an intrusion. We are not going to be surrounded by cotton wool and never face adversities. Jesus wasn't.

The Catholic Church isn't very Christ-like. It's convenient to use religion to further one's own purposes.