Marriage at very young age

[mms20102]

Marriage at the age of 10 11 and 12 was the habit of the 11th up to 17th century what do you think about it

[OnceConvinced]

2- If " Premarital sex " Is a good thing according to your culture then you have changed women to be " whores "

That is an absurd notion. I live with my girlfriend. We are not married. I am the only one she is with. Sex is a very good thing in our relationship. No one in their right mind would refer to her as a whore. If someone did, they would suffer the brunt of my wrath.

If this is the attitude your religion has towards women who have sex with their partner outside of marriage, then it's no wonder it is so reviled. It is no wonder it is so guilty of atrocities towards women.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with premarital sex. It's just that ancient man for some reason vilified it. We are all sexual creatures MMS. It's not surprising we would all want to have sex. I bet you are no different.

where they can have sex with any partner and with no restrictions

Who is talking about having sex with anyone you like with no restrictions? Nobody! But even if so, what's the big deal? As long as it's mutually agreed upon and no one is hurting the other.

What is wrong with having a monogamous relationship and having sex within that relationship? Why should we have to get married for that?

and changed men to be lust seekers as they can go to strip club and pick what ever woman they want and change them one by one then you speak about morality and how ancient people were barbaric ! Well for me ancient people had more morals than you they used to cover their bodies and they used not to have premarital sex and they have considered it as a shame to be done

You are erecting a strawman. Just because one has sex outside of marriage does not mean any of this is happening.

3- I guess I will need to make a whole new topic about premarital sex

Feel free to start other topics. I just hope you won't make Islam look any worse than you already have made it look.

[OnceConvinced]

1- A girl become fully adult at the age from 12 to 16 normally .. very few girls become adults at the age of 11 and rarely as hell girls become mature at the age of 9 and 10
( Based on biology )

As has already been pointed out, just because the body may be considered physically mature, does not mean that the brain is. Just because their body is sexually mature does not mean they are mature enough to make good decisions. Especially not one on whom they are going to spend the rest of their life with.

Biologically their brains are not mature enough.

2- Each nation got its morals and what is accepted and what is not accepted in Arabia its always accepted for girls to marry at the age of 13 14 15 and so on
In US and Europe it was accepted for girls to marry at very young age then it was banned gradually and still there is some states allow it with conditions

In the latter case it was realised that girls that age were not mature enough mentally to be getting married. It was realised that adults were forcing them into those relationships and that was immoral.

3- A lot of girls still become sexually active at very young age and if not properly contained they may choose to be unchaste as easy way money

How does marriage solve any of that problem? People rush into marriage and they find they are not happy. So they commit adultery. Marriage is not going to solve the problem of one's lust or desire for a fulfilling sexual relationship.

Marriage should not be entered into that lightly. It should be considered seriously by both parties and there should be no coercion. Both parties should be able to be of the MENTAL maturity to make life decisions. A decision should NOT be made for a child who is incapable of making those decisions. Marriage should NOT be considered just to solve the problem of someone's lust for another. There should be real love involved. Not just duty... not just to please family or gods.

[KenRU]

[Replying to post 38 by KenRU]

Now I have seen what exactly what we are debating actually the definitions of teen and adult then the age of each and the development of body

According to biological sites
a child become a teenage at the age of 11 to 14 when we speak about special growth rates we actually mean they will develop what others will take more time to do earlier than any one in this case a girl could turn to be a teen at the age of 8 to 11 and again its very rare we are speaking about a very rare issue and may take 4 to 5 years and turn to be adult in this case from 12 to 15 and achieve all the emotional and physical development we are discussing extreme thing that's rare to happen nowdays

Again, language difficulties. Teen means 13-19. Full stop.

I believe you mean (instead of being a teenager) a girl entering puberty? Correct?

Each nation got its own rights or wrong morals and I can give drinking and gambling as an example

at the bible " 4 Listen, Lemuel. Kings should not drink wine or have a craving for alcohol. 5 When they drink, they forget the laws and ignore the rights of people in need. 6 Alcohol is for people who are dying, for those who are in misery. 7 Let them drink and forget their poverty and unhappiness."

yet its totally banned for any Islamic society now can you tell me is drinking wine is moral or immoral ?

Humans set their own morals.

Now, having said that, I think we can agree that certain things are just plain wrong, such as murder. I'd like to think that 13 year olds marrying and or having sex would be another. Apparently not.

every single point we will be discussing will be subject to our cultures at the 60s sex revolution took place and at the Islamic society they kept there cultures we have some clear morals deduced from Quran and our prophet

Again, no. We should be basing our principles upon science and compassion. Not a cultural revolution or archaic thinking.

Can we agree on that?

being you agree or disagree it will be either my or your choice based on your current culture

If by culture, you include science which is the same for me AND you, then sure.

but I can say that at any point once a girl become physically mature she becomes also emotionally mature to decide what's right and what's wrong based on biological sites

Utterly FALSE. Her brain (frontal lobe) develops at a different rate than her reproductive organs. I'm not sure why you would have any difficulty with this. Look up brain development for children and teenagers on any reputable site. Please show me a scientific link where the conclusion is reached that reproductive organs develop at the same rate as the brain. Please.

This is TANTAMOUNT to understanding my point.

And the last thing I would say that men become wisest at the age of 40 that doesn't mean a man should wait to be 40 to be a CEO or become a president

This has nothing to do with my point, and further shows me that you do not understand my point.

Experience is different than biological development.

I ask that you re-read my posts and do further research on brain development for children and teenagers.

-all the best

[mms20102]

[Replying to post 41 by OnceConvinced]

I will make a new topic for premarital sex because going deep into this subject will take us out of current topic

16 or 17 is generally considered the legal age for sex AND the legal age for getting married. Anything under that is illegal in the civilised world. Anything under that is either statutory rape and/or paedophilia.

Children having sex with each other is something different again. However in no way should marriage be entered into just because they are having sex. That would be ridiculous. Marriage should not be entered into that lightly.

now according to your concept a male and female mind develop emotionally and they should not even marry at the age of 16 17 or less but actually you forgot the fact that human brain keep developing emotionally through his life span and for the rest of development its not that great development once a child reach adolescence

This chart will make my point clear https://universe-review.ca/I10-47-ages.jpg
once a child reach the age of 11 12 13 different from one to another the brain is now almost ready with its all features and adult in return may be more emotionally developed and a 40 year old is the most emotionally developed

A body may be mature, but the mind is not. The mind and body are two different things. You don't just suddenly become responsible when your body is old enough for sex, as proven by the fact that teenagers go and have reckless sex and end up with deseases and unwanted pregnancies.

First I disagree that body and brain re separate things in fact they grow simultaneously and growth of brain slows down at the start of adolescence
An article called Moving Onwards: Your 13 to 15-Year-Old said
Your child is now officially a teenager, and it can be a challenging time for both of you. They’ve come so far since those first hesitant steps but, though they might be striding more confidently, they have a way to go and still need your help.

Socially, your child is more reliant on peer relationships and less dependent on you. They can maintain stable relationships with adults and peers and, while they’re more likely to have friends of the opposite sex, same-sex friendships will be more common. Their peers will influence them strongly in everything from the way they dress to their interests and behaviour. They’ll test the boundaries, but this will decrease as they get older and start to really experience more of the independence they’ve been aiming for over the last few years though they’ll likely complain you’re interfering too much. You may have some challenging conversations about morals and privileges especially as they realise that adults aren’t perfect.


From this we can conclude that teens are emotionally stable unlike what you are saying and I have been through many articles and all said the same after the age of 12 every thing stops except emotional development which keep growing till the age of 40

As has already been pointed out, just because the body may be considered physically mature, does not mean that the brain is. Just because their body is sexually mature does not mean they are mature enough to make good decisions. Especially not one on whom they are going to spend the rest of their life with.

Biologically their brains are not mature enough.

Just tell me where did you get those facts from ?

How does marriage solve any of that problem? People rush into marriage and they find they are not happy. So they commit adultery. Marriage is not going to solve the problem of one's lust or desire for a fulfilling sexual relationship.

Marriage should not be entered into that lightly. It should be considered seriously by both parties and there should be no coercion. Both parties should be able to be of the MENTAL maturity to make life decisions. A decision should NOT be made for a child who is incapable of making those decisions. Marriage should NOT be considered just to solve the problem of someone's lust for another. There should be real love involved. Not just duty... not just to please family or gods.

let's keep this for premarital sex again going deep into this will make us deviate in my opinion it take a lot of time

Again Teen according to this site
" http://brainconnection.brainhq.com/2013 ... teenagers/ "
The results from these studies do not mean that a teenager will always make irrational decisions. They do, however, suggest that teenagers need guidance as their brains develop, especially in the realm of controlling emotional impulses in order to make rational decisions. It is becoming clear that the adolescent brain is a work in progress, and that parents and educators can help this progress along through open communication and clear boundaries.

No one in this world doesn't need guidance even adults ! saying that they can't do decisions is totally wrong they can do decisions and they can say what is moral and what is immoral what is right and what is wrong they can love and they can hate

one last thing every man in this world wants to have sex but unlike animals we human beings should marry to create a bond between a male and female

[mms20102]

[Replying to post 43 by KenRU]

Utterly FALSE. Her brain (frontal lobe) develops at a different rate than her reproductive organs. I'm not sure why you would have any difficulty with this. Look up brain development for children and teenagers on any reputable site. Please show me a scientific link where the conclusion is reached that reproductive organs develop at the same rate as the brain. Please.

This is TANTAMOUNT to understanding my point.

According to your conclusion a boy and a girl should not marry or have any sexual relationship until the age of 20-26 and according to emotional development we should say the age of 40 - 46

Experience is different than biological development.

biological development in one chart

https://universe-review.ca/I10-47-ages.jpg


Again " All " biological sites states that brain keep developing emotionally until late age and according to the chart above you can notice that at the age or 12 13 14 any teen is actually having a developed mind its only that this mind is not experienced enough being unexperienced is not the main thing to block marriage or you will need to marry at the age 40 again as its the age of complete mind development

[KenRU]

[Replying to post 43 by KenRU]

Utterly FALSE. Her brain (frontal lobe) develops at a different rate than her reproductive organs. I'm not sure why you would have any difficulty with this. Look up brain development for children and teenagers on any reputable site. Please show me a scientific link where the conclusion is reached that reproductive organs develop at the same rate as the brain. Please.

This is TANTAMOUNT to understanding my point.

According to your conclusion a boy and a girl should not marry or have any sexual relationship until the age of 20-26 and according to emotional development we should say the age of 40 - 46

No. You are making things up again. I have not yet ventured my opinion on when they should, just when they shouldn't.

Experience is different than biological development.

biological development in one chart

https://universe-review.ca/I10-47-ages.jpg

Thank you once again for making my argument for me. Please note in your chart where the Decision Making and Impulse Control develops – it is NOT AT THE BEGINNING of adolescence!

Which was my point.

Again " All " biological sites states that brain keep developing emotionally until late age and according to the chart above you can notice that at the age or 12 13 14 any teen is actually having a developed mind its only that this mind is not experienced enough being unexperienced is not the main thing to block marriage or you will need to marry at the age 40 again as its the age of complete mind development

That is not what the chart shows (as it relates to our conversation). Please see my response above and in previous posts. You are either ignoring it and the data presented by me and (lol) you, or you just don’t get it, and I am not sure how else to present this to you.

As my previously sent article states quite plainly, and your chart also shows quite plainly: the brain’s ability to control impulses, decision making and judgement remains poor (at its initial development). And this is at the beginning of adolescence. This is according to the chart YOU PROVIDED. The articles and I are not saying anything about experience (emotional or otherwise), it is due to the organ not being developed enough to do it all or at best even well.

This is not about cognitive powers peeking. It is about the brain being able to do what you are claiming it can do: make adult decisions surrounding emotional situations. IT CLEARLY CAN NOT – even according to the chart you provided.

Once again, I beseech you to reread this data and reconsider your position.

All the best

[mms20102]

[Replying to KenRU]

" http://brainconnection.brainhq.com/2013 ... -a-work-in... "

The results from these studies do not mean that a teenager will always make irrational decisions. They do, however, suggest that teenagers need guidance as their brains develop, especially in the realm of controlling emotional impulses in order to make rational decisions. It is becoming clear that the adolescent brain is a work in progress, and that parents and educators can help this progress along through open communication and clear boundaries.

This was your site


now if you look at the chart I sent you you will see that old people
got crystalized intelligent generating a resistance to frustration , better inductive reasoning and greater tolerance for ambiguity . Skill at managing relationships improve

Now referring back to your point no one should marry until the old age where they can actually manage relationships

I've read every thing you typed and all the data as I said before teens can have some irrational decisions and that's why there should be a guidance from parents one thing that can support my point from Quran is :

"And if you have reason to fear that a breach might occur between a [married] couple, appoint an arbiter from among his people and an arbiter from among her people; if they both want to set things aright, God may bring about their reconciliation. Be­hold, God is indeed all-knowing, aware. " Quran (4 : 35 )


For the last time I will be saying this " Adults " have a better judgment and old men are all wisest and teens can judge but at poor level because they are still unexperienced that doesn't mean a teen should not marry but it means they can marry under the observation and guidance of their parents .

[KenRU]

[Replying to KenRU]

" http://brainconnection.brainhq.com/2013 ... -a-work-in... "

The results from these studies do not mean that a teenager will always make irrational decisions. They do, however, suggest that teenagers need guidance as their brains develop, especially in the realm of controlling emotional impulses in order to make rational decisions. It is becoming clear that the adolescent brain is a work in progress, and that parents and educators can help this progress along through open communication and clear boundaries.

This was your site

Bold added to emphasize my point. Let’s not ignore the relevant parts, shall we?

Think this through. What part of “teenagers need guidance as their brains develop, especially in the realm of controlling emotional impulses in order to make rational decisions� and “It is becoming clear that the adolescent brain is a work in progress� indicates to you that a 13 year old should be engaging in marriage and sex?????

now if you look at the chart I sent you you will see that old people
got crystalized intelligent generating a resistance to frustration , better inductive reasoning and greater tolerance for ambiguity . Skill at managing relationships improve

Interesting, but irrelevant – plus this makes me think you do not understand (again) what the articles are saying and what my point is regarding sex and marriage for 13 year olds.

Now referring back to your point no one should marry until the old age where they can actually manage relationships

I never quite said what you are saying here. If you want to know what my point is, I will tell you, again: Children’s (especially 13 year olds) brains have not developed enough to adequately process Impulse Control, Decision Making, Judgement and Consequence Appreciation (as your chart says) and should NOT be engaging in sex and marriage. I’d appreciate it if you could accurately restate my position in the future.

I've read every thing you typed and all the data

But you have yet to respond to my salient point though. A young teenager’s brain (such as a 13 year old or younger) is not biologically developed enough to handle important issues (as noted above). It is NOT that they don’t have experience, it is that the organ is not able to do such things YET.

as I said before teens can have some irrational decisions and that's why there should be a guidance from parents one thing that can support my point from Quran is :

"And if you have reason to fear that a breach might occur between a [married] couple, appoint an arbiter from among his people and an arbiter from among her people; if they both want to set things aright, God may bring about their reconciliation. Be­hold, God is indeed all-knowing, aware. " Quran (4 : 35 )

Parents are not in the bedroom when sex occurs. Parents are not (typically) assisting in a couple’s marital problems. That is why most civilized countries and states do not allow 13 year olds to marry. And, why they consider it statutory rape when an adult has sex with them. They are taking advantage of a person who does not have the ability to fully understand the consequences of their actions – YOUR OWN CHART STATES THIS PLAINLY.

For the last time I will be saying this " Adults " have a better judgment and old men are all wisest and teens can judge but at poor level because they are still unexperienced

FALSE. You are still not reading the data correctly. It has NOTHING to do with experience. It has everything to do with BIOLOGY. The brain is not there yet to handle the skills mentioned above.

I repeat. The chart you provide, and the article I sent you state plainly, that a young teenager’s brain is not physically developed enough to handle such adult experiences.

I would appreciate you at least addressing this point. Do you agree with the science articles or not?

that doesn't mean a teen should not marry but it means they can marry under the observation and guidance of their parents .

Again, a 19 year old is different than a 13 year old. Given that this whole thread started with the subject of Aisha, how about you propose a reason why a 13 year old should be engaging in sex, and getting married. Nowhere does the data you provided, or the data I provided, suggest this is a good or healthy idea.

-all the best

[mms20102]

[Replying to KenRU]

Interesting, but irrelevant – plus this makes me think you do not understand (again) what the articles are saying and what my point is regarding sex and marriage for 13 year olds.

I wonder why you call something Irrelevant while i can't those words were not mine at any point and referring to them i can make my point which is even adults are not good at relationships

Parents are not in the bedroom when sex occurs. Parents are not (typically) assisting in a couple’s marital problems. That is why most civilized countries and states do not allow 13 year olds to marry. And, why they consider it statutory rape when an adult has sex with them. They are taking advantage of a person who does not have the ability to fully understand the consequences of their actions – YOUR OWN CHART STATES THIS PLAINLY.

Animals didn't watch extensive guide for how to have sex or how to raise a child our grand fathers and people from history didn't have all that worries about marriage we just complicate things and parents should be assisting in couple marital problems simply because they know better . I have already mentioned that there is some states up til now still legalize 13 year olds to marry .
In UK
The Crown Prosecution guidelines state "t is not in the public interest to prosecute children who are of the same or similar age and understanding that engage in sexual activity, where the activity is truly consensual for both parties and there are no aggravating features, such as coercion or corruption."[33]

this is for people of the same age now let's go for Aisha

You have stated that she was forced by her father and Marco said that prophet Mohamed raped her and you didn't prove that she was forced but you just deduced it

now i would ask you why she didn't say any thing bad about it ? she always said we had a happy life and she said he appointed me to speak to women in the matter of religion .. why would prophet mohamed appoint a teen to speak of she is normal and how was she capable of narrating prophet's words if she was young to understand .. If she at any point felt oppressed or forced she would say it and if she was forced she won't say she had a happy life

according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statutory_rape

Consensual teenage sex in the United States is common. A 1995 study revealed that, by the age of sixteen, 50% of U.S. teenagers have had sexual intercourse.

now they are all guilty to have a desire there body naturally developed now if you consider that teens should be alarmed about sexual diseases they may get from partners then I totally agree but if you tell me they need to know how to do sex then no parents can refer it in very light and in a simple way other than a guide or explanation because its some thing that even animals doesn't need to learn

Marriage is not about sex but if you teach your teens not to do premarital sex and allow it that way teens could have stopped having sex before the age of 16 as you want

For any two teens who are physically mature and loving can marry what ever there ages was as long as they are both physically totally mature

[KenRU]

[Replying to KenRU]

Interesting, but irrelevant – plus this makes me think you do not understand (again) what the articles are saying and what my point is regarding sex and marriage for 13 year olds.

I wonder why you call something Irrelevant while i can't those words were not mine at any point and referring to them i can make my point which is even adults are not good at relationships

“Not good at� is not the same as “biologically unable to�. One is a physical limitation, than other is due to lack of experience. You do get that don't you?

Parents are not in the bedroom when sex occurs. Parents are not (typically) assisting in a couple’s marital problems. That is why most civilized countries and states do not allow 13 year olds to marry. And, why they consider it statutory rape when an adult has sex with them. They are taking advantage of a person who does not have the ability to fully understand the consequences of their actions – YOUR OWN CHART STATES THIS PLAINLY.

Animals didn't watch extensive guide for how to have sex or how to raise a child

World’s worst response why a 13 year old should be engaging in sex and marriage. Wow.

our grand fathers and people from history didn't have all that worries about marriage we just complicate things

How does acknowledging that a 13 year old’s brain is not developed enough for more mature decision making complicate things? I see it as the humane thing to do. And I’m baffled as to why you don’t.

and parents should be assisting in couple marital problems simply because they know better . I have already mentioned that there is some states up til now still legalize 13 year olds to marry .

Far more states have the consent age (with parental permission) at 15 or 16. There are some exceptions and those are governed by a Special Cause.

But this is irrelevant again. We’re talking about 13 year olds.

In UK
The Crown Prosecution guidelines state "t is not in the public interest to prosecute children who are of the same or similar age and understanding that engage in sexual activity, where the activity is truly consensual for both parties and there are no aggravating features, such as coercion or corruption."[33]

Which is not the case for Mohammed and Aisha.

this is for people of the same age now let's go for Aisha

You have stated that she was forced by her father

Never said forced. I do not know if she was forced or not.

and Marco said that prophet Mohamed raped her and you didn't prove that she was forced but you just deduced it

Marco can speak for himself. My opinion is that a 13 year old is not capable of giving permission for sex because her brain is not developed enough to fully understand. The science backs up that position.

now i would ask you why she didn't say any thing bad about it ?

In my opinion, it is because it is a fictional story.

she always said we had a happy life and she said he appointed me to speak to women in the matter of religion .. why would prophet mohamed appoint a teen to speak of she is normal and how was she capable of narrating prophet's words if she was young to understand .. If she at any point felt oppressed or forced she would say it and if she was forced she won't say she had a happy life

Not the best answer. Why don’t a predominant amount of abused wives speak out?

according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statutory_rape

Consensual teenage sex in the United States is common. A 1995 study revealed that, by the age of sixteen, 50% of U.S. teenagers have had sexual intercourse.

What is the stat for 13 year olds?

And once again, this is irrelevant, and actually speaks to my point and not yours. Teenagers make mistakes because their brain is not developed enough to control impulses and emotions. You are making my argument for me, lol, again.

now they are all guilty to have a desire there body naturally developed now if you consider that teens should be alarmed about sexual diseases they may get from partners then I totally agree but if you tell me they need to know how to do sex then no

Where on earth do you get these ideas? Once again, this comment makes me think you do not understand my position or what the science says on this subject.

parents can refer it in very light and in a simple way other than a guide or explanation because its some thing that even animals doesn't need to learn

Once again, this is not about experience. It is about the brain being able to understand and control impulses and emotions. It doesn’t do this very well at age 13 (if at all).

Marriage is not about sex

Correction, it is not solely about sex.

but if you teach your teens not to do premarital sex and allow it that way teens could have stopped having sex before the age of 16 as you want

Abstinence only plans fail at a miserable rate. Statistically, Sex Ed Programs fair far better than Abstinence Only Programs. This is undebatable.

For any two teens who are physically mature and loving can marry what ever there ages was as long as they are both physically totally mature

Bold added for emphasis. Good., a 13 year old brain is not totally physically mature". Now what do you say?

You still didn’t answer my question:

The chart you provide, and the article I sent you state plainly, that a young teenager’s brain is not physically developed enough to handle such adult experiences.

Do you agree with the science articles or not?