Proof of the Christian God

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RonE
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Proof of the Christian God

Post #1

Post by RonE »

In a current topic there was the following post:
Kenisaw wrote:
theStudent wrote: Merely saying something is true does not make it true….
We as humans like to have proof.
Gullible people accept things, because it suits them…
And yet theists continue to claim that a creator being exists and that it made everything, despite repeatedly failing to provide any evidence to substantiate the claim....
I’ve seen other posts in the past on this site where theist claim to have scientific evidence of God. I never seen this actually done, usually their evidence is never presented, if something is presented it is invariably misquoted, or doesn’t say what the presenter claims it does.
So, to help us not be “gullible people�. This topic will be dedicated to theists to provide that which has been claimed but never provided, to my knowledge, real scientific evidence of the Christian god.
First, some definitions and parameters for debate:
1. Scientific evidence is evidence which serves to either support, or counter, a scientific theory or hypothesis. Such evidence is expected to be empirical evidence and interpreted in accordance with scientific methods. Standards for scientific evidence vary according to the field of inquiry, but the strength of scientific evidence is generally based on the results of statistical analysis and the strength of scientific controls applied. Wikipedia
2. The scientific hypothesis you will be trying to support with your evidence goes like this: “there is a god as defined in the Christian bible who is omnificent, omnipotent, omniscient, etc. and creator of the universe�.
3. This is not a debate about evolution, disproving evolution is not a proof that your god exists. Nor is it about attempting to debunk other scientific hypothesis or theories, unless doing so is direct proof that your god exists, disproving the theory of gravity is not evidence of your god.
4. Please follow the forum rules. “the Bible or other religious writings are not to be considered evidence for scientific claims.�

The rules for this debate are simple:
1) present your scientific evidence of your god
2) see #1

If you don’t have the evidence, please don’t waste everyone’s time.
If you don't like the OP create one for your own topic.
*"On the other hand, we have people who are believers who are so completely sold on the literal interpretation of the first book of the Bible that they are rejecting very compelling scientific data about the age of the earth and the relatedness of living beings." Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D.
*The Atheist has the comfort of no fears for an afterlife and lacks any compulsion to blow himself up.
* Science flies to you the moon.... religion flies you into buildings.
* Faith isn’t a virtue; it is the glorification of voluntary ignorance.

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rikuoamero
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Re: Proof of the Christian God

Post #141

Post by rikuoamero »

McCulloch wrote:
RonE wrote: The rules for this debate are simple:
1) present your scientific evidence of your god
2) see #1

If you don’t have the evidence, please don’t waste everyone’s time.
If you don't like the OP create one for your own topic.
Two observations:
  1. Debaters seem to have lost focus. In reading the past few pages, I'm seeing very little in the way of "[…] therefore God".
  2. We are missing a coherent consistent definition of what we mean by the word god. Science does not jump in with evidence until they have their terms well defined. One might be trying to disprove a comic book super hero type God while another might be trying to prove the deist concept.
The OP does say something about that.
This topic will be dedicated to theists to provide that which has been claimed but never provided, to my knowledge, real scientific evidence of the Christian god.
Of course, what exactly is meant by 'Christian god' is still kinda up in the air, but I think we can rule out a deistic god (one who creates the universe but doesn't interact with it).
OP gives a sample definition
The scientific hypothesis you will be trying to support with your evidence goes like this: “there is a god as defined in the Christian bible who is omnificent, omnipotent, omniscient, etc. and creator of the universe�.
Image

Your life is your own. Rise up and live it - Richard Rahl, Sword of Truth Book 6 "Faith of the Fallen"

I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead

Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

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RonE
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5 months

Post #142

Post by RonE »

Now a few days more than 5 months and this OB has not been been shocked by anyone providing even the slightest scientific evidence to support this god.

Cannot say I'm surprised. This god who is suppose to do so many wonderful things and yet no one has any evidence to present that he exists other than in their own minds.

Happy new year!
*"On the other hand, we have people who are believers who are so completely sold on the literal interpretation of the first book of the Bible that they are rejecting very compelling scientific data about the age of the earth and the relatedness of living beings." Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D.
*The Atheist has the comfort of no fears for an afterlife and lacks any compulsion to blow himself up.
* Science flies to you the moon.... religion flies you into buildings.
* Faith isn’t a virtue; it is the glorification of voluntary ignorance.

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RonE
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Post #143

Post by RonE »

I continue to be surprised that this post has been so ignored by the christian's here. Really, this is their chance to shine, to show all their scientific proof of their god. Another 2 months have gone by with nary a single offering. I think that speaks very loudly.
*"On the other hand, we have people who are believers who are so completely sold on the literal interpretation of the first book of the Bible that they are rejecting very compelling scientific data about the age of the earth and the relatedness of living beings." Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D.
*The Atheist has the comfort of no fears for an afterlife and lacks any compulsion to blow himself up.
* Science flies to you the moon.... religion flies you into buildings.
* Faith isn’t a virtue; it is the glorification of voluntary ignorance.

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RonE
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And another 4 months

Post #144

Post by RonE »

Wow, another 4 months and not a peep of evidence of this god. And, going on a year now. I'll check back on July 27th, maybe I'll get a surprise.
*"On the other hand, we have people who are believers who are so completely sold on the literal interpretation of the first book of the Bible that they are rejecting very compelling scientific data about the age of the earth and the relatedness of living beings." Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D.
*The Atheist has the comfort of no fears for an afterlife and lacks any compulsion to blow himself up.
* Science flies to you the moon.... religion flies you into buildings.
* Faith isn’t a virtue; it is the glorification of voluntary ignorance.

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Re: Proof of the Christian God

Post #145

Post by liamconnor »

[Replying to post 1 by RonE]

If by 'science' we mean the scientific method, then of course not. The scientific method can no more demonstrate the existence of God than it can that the battle of Carthage took place. There are various kinds of knowledge and each has its own method at yielding it.

However, it is worth noting that a sufficient number of cosmologists believe the universe is tweaked in such a way that implies 'external motive'. But whether they would say this is based on the scientific method I highly doubt. It seems more an interpretation of data.

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Re: Proof of the Christian God

Post #146

Post by Justin108 »

liamconnor wrote: [Replying to post 1 by RonE]

If by 'science' we mean the scientific method, then of course not. The scientific method can no more demonstrate the existence of God than it can that the battle of Carthage took place. There are various kinds of knowledge and each has its own method at yielding it.
What method would we need to use to establish whether or not God exists?

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Re: Proof of the Christian God

Post #147

Post by McCulloch »

Justin108 wrote:What method would we need to use to establish whether or not God exists?
To start, we need a definition of what we mean by the word God.
The scientific hypothesis you will be trying to support with your evidence goes like this: “there is a god as defined in the Christian bible who is omnificent, omnipotent, omniscient, etc. and creator of the universe�.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

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Post #148

Post by Hawkins »

Show us some proof of what you just did today but a year ago!

Human witnessing, as its nature, has no proof. Or humans have no history.


Jewish historian Josephus wrote a series of books some 2000 years ago. They are divided into books, chapters and sections. Now you can go through the whole series section by section with the same question, "how this section is evidenced". Then come back to tell us how many sections can be evidenced.

In a nutshell, history has no proof or humans have no history. The difference between history and religious witnessing is that history is all about what lies inside our comprehension which we can still conceptually speculate in today's world. On the other hand, supernatural claims are about something not lying inside our knowledge or time/space for us to speculate at will. It however by no means says that those claims are not true, they can be false claims though.

To put it another way, even when a supernatural claim is true, what can be done is for the one who encountered it to write down for others to believe with faith, there's no other way round. The same happens to most of human history as a whole, the further away history is the more it is so!

That said. Among all religions the gods usually don't give a reason why they have to hide behind. However Christianity is about "humans are saved by faith". So if the evidence of God can be shown scientifically, all humans are dead. The seeking of God with concrete evidence means the seeking of the death of all mankind.

My question on the other hand is, why are you so confident that your question is valid but not answerable? From my speculation, the answer is simple however it is beyond your IQ to reach while you choose to rely heavily on you IQ on something it can hardly reach. You apply your IQ wrongly to something human IQ can never reach, which is in a nutshell about what could possibly happen after our death.

Science is experiment/observation based, we won't have a science proof as long as humans can't go to another realm (the spiritual realm as it is where all the religious claims are about) to do experiments and observations. Science is thus futile about claims of what could possibly in another space and another time.

So if a truth lies in there, or one of such claims is a truth, the only way you can reach such a truth (and reach it on time) is by putting faith in certain accounts of human witnessing.

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Post #149

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 148 by Hawkins]
So if the evidence of God can be shown scientifically, all humans are dead. The seeking of God with concrete evidence means the seeking of the death of all mankind.
Is this in and of itself true? It seems more to me to be an excuse given for why, when evidence of God is sought, he simply cannot be found.
o if a truth lies in there, or one of such claims is a truth, the only way you can reach such a truth (and reach it on time) is by putting faith in certain accounts of human witnessing.
Except how do we know which of many given claims is a truth, if we are not able to do anything to examine it? Is a truth the Abrahamic God? Jesus? What Muhammed said? Or something else entirely?
If we have to resort to faith, how then do we separate the dross from the gold? Anyone can say anything at all, and say that is true and one just has to have faith...
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Your life is your own. Rise up and live it - Richard Rahl, Sword of Truth Book 6 "Faith of the Fallen"

I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead

Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

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Post #150

Post by Hawkins »

rikuoamero wrote: [Replying to post 148 by Hawkins]
So if the evidence of God can be shown scientifically, all humans are dead. The seeking of God with concrete evidence means the seeking of the death of all mankind.
Is this in and of itself true? It seems more to me to be an excuse given for why, when evidence of God is sought, he simply cannot be found.
Christianity is all about a covenant between God and man. The covenant specifies that humans will be saved by faith. It is because when judged by God's Law, no humans can pass the final judgment. So if God is evident, what faith do you have for you to be saved by such a covenant.


In a nutshell, the ways for humans to notice God's presence physically are,

1) God shows Himself up. Any god should show up in front of humans unless he has a reason to hide behind. The Christianity God has such a reason. He granted a covenant which requires humans to be saved by faith. There's a reason why the covenant has to be so. It goes beyond the discussion topic of this thread though.

2) by believing in human witnessing
Believing in human witnessing is the fundamental and exclusive way for humans to reach a truth of any kind. We may fail to realize it is so though.

To illustrate, among the 100% humans who 'know' that black holes exist, 99.99% of them don't have the evidence. What they have is basically ---------> Faith!

We put faith in a small amount of humans who we believe are he closest to a possible scientific truth. We call this small amount of humans as direct witnesses the scientists. By putting faith in them is the way how humans in majority reach a scientific truth.

On the other hand, scientific truth is just one of the many kinds of truths. As I mentioned in previous posts, human history as another kind of truth can hardly be evidenced. This is so by the very nature of this kind of truth.

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