CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

[tigger2]

CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

"trinity ...1. [cap.] Theol. The union of three persons or hypostases (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost) in one Godhead, so that all the three are one God as to substance, but three persons or hypostases as to individuality. 2. Any symbol of the Trinity in art. 3. Any union of three in one; a triad; as the Hindu trinity, or Trimurti." - Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, G. & C. Merriam Co., 1961. (emphasis added by me.)
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Athanasian Creed:

"And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other, none is greater or less than others; but the whole three persons are co- eternal together; and co-equal. So that in all things as is aforesaid: the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

"HE THEREFORE THAT WILL BE SAVED MUST THUS THINK OF THE TRINITY."
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"Trinity, the Most Holy

"The most sublime mystery of the Christian faith is this: 'God is absolutely one in nature and essence, and relatively three in Persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) who are really distinct from each other." - p. 584, The Catholic Encyclopedia, Thomas Nelson, Inc., Publishers, 1976.
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The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
"1. The Term 'Trinity':
"The term "Trinity" is not a Biblical term, and we are not using Biblical language when we define what is expressed by it as the doctrine that there is one only and true God, but in the unity of the Godhead there are three coeternal and coequal Persons, the same in substance but distinct in subsistence." - p. 3012, Vol. IV, Eerdmans, 1984.

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Challenges from scripture itself:

(A) Please carefully and thoroughly search to find a vision, dream, or clear description in scripture wherein God is visibly shown as more than one person.

(This is really not that difficult. Either there is a vision, dream, description, etc. somewhere in scripture clearly visibly showing the one God as three persons or there isn't. Either way, it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.)
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(B) Please show where in scripture God is ever described using the word "three."

(Either God is described somewhere in scripture using the word "three" or its clear equivalent (just as He is clearly described with the word “one� or its equivalent - “alone,� “only,� etc. ), or He is not. Either way it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.)
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(C) Please find clear, direct, undisputed statements (equivalent to “Jesus is the Christ� or "YHWH is God" which are found repeatedly in clear, undisputed scriptures) which declare:

“YHWH is the Son,� or “YHWH is the Firstborn,� or, “YHWH is the Messiah (or ‘Christ’),� or any other equally clear, undisputed statement that “Jesus is YHWH� (the only God according to scripture).
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Since the Father is clearly, directly, and indisputably called "God, the Father," many, many times, and the Son and Holy Spirit are said by trinitarians to be equally the one God (in ‘three distinct persons’):

(D) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures where Jesus is called "God, the Son," (equal to those which declare "God, the Father" – Ro. 15:6; 1 Cor. 1:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; 2 Cor. 11:31; Gal. 1:1; Eph. 4:6; 1 Thess. 1:1; 2 Thess. 1:2; etc.)

and,
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(E) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures (such as "God, the Father") where the Holy Spirit is called "God, the Holy Spirit."
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(F) If Jesus and/or the first century Christians (considered a sect of Judaism at that time) truly believed that Jesus was God, How could they possibly be allowed to teach in the temple and synagogues as they were?
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(G) If John truly believed a stunning new essential ‘knowledge’ of God that Jesus is equally God, why would he summarize and conclude his Gospel with, “But these [the Gospel of John] are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God…�

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(H) When the chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were attempting to gather evidence to kill Jesus, why did they have to hire false witnesses? And why did these same priests and false witnesses never say that Jesus believed (or taught) that he was God? Instead the high priest finally said to Jesus: “Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.� - Matt. 26:59-63 NIV.

Obviously these officials had never heard anyone accuse Jesus or his followers of claiming that Jesus was God!

[Eloi]

For Jehovah to be the God of gods, it is logical to think that there are other genuin gods, cause God is not the God of "false" gods. That statement is implicit in the expresion "God of gods" and it is in tone with the rest of the Scriptures. We read:

2 Cor. 4:3 If, now, the good news we declare is in fact veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, 4 among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.

That is a god mentioned in the Bible, and it is not an imaginary god. Have you read that text before?

[MarysSon]

For Jehovah to be the God of gods, it is logical to think that there are other genuin gods, cause God is not the God of "false" gods. That statement is implicit in the expresion "God of gods" and it is in tone with the rest of the Scriptures. We read:

2 Cor. 4:3 If, now, the good news we declare is in fact veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, 4 among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.

That is a god mentioned in the Bible, and it is not an imaginary god. Have you read that text before?

Then you are promoting polytheism.
There is only ONE God - and ALL of the other gods are false gods.

[Eloi]

[Replying to post 252 by MarysSon]
That is your opinion. MINE is that you can not pretend that politheism is monotheism, saying that three gods are only one.

Don't you pray to the Son? and to the Father? Cause if you do, you are praying to two different gods, not to one ... or you would be praying to a God called Trinity and it is not the case.

[PinSeeker]

For Jehovah to be the God of gods, it is logical to think that there are other genuin gods, cause God is not the God of "false" gods. That statement is implicit in the expresion "God of gods" and it is in tone with the rest of the Scriptures. We read:

2 Cor. 4:3 If, now, the good news we declare is in fact veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, 4 among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.

That is a god mentioned in the Bible, and it is not an imaginary god. Have you read that text before?

Then you are promoting polytheism.
There is only ONE God - and ALL of the other gods are false gods.

I disagree, respectfully, that this intimates pantheism. Pantheism is exactly what they accuse people who believe in God's trinitarian nature of. Wrongly, of course, but the point is that they can't be pantheists if they disavow pantheism (see Eloi's post above). At any rate, Jehovah's Witnesses are steadfast in their belief that:

• "(t)he LORD our God, the LORD is one" (Deuteronomy 6:4).

Now, I will disagree strongly -- as will you, hopefully -- with their belief that this only refers to the Father, and will continue to proclaim that it refers to the Son and the Holy Spirit as our one true -- triune -- God. But I will agree with them in saying that there are indeed other gods, but false gods. There's even a false trinity, as we see in Revelation.

But we digress. No need to get on that here, really.

"A God called Trinity." Oh, my sweet Lord. That's just incredible. Wow.

Grace and peace to you.

[MarysSon]

That is your opinion. MINE is that you can not pretend that politheism is monotheism, saying that three gods are only one.

Don't you pray to the Son? and to the Father? Cause if you do, you are praying to two different gods, not to one ... or you would be praying to a God called Trinity and it is not the case.

Wrong.

It's ONE God and THREE Persons.
the Father is not the Son or the Holy Spirit.
The Son is not the Father or the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son.

They are three distinct Persons in ONE essence (God).

[MarysSon]

That is your opinion. MINE is that you can not pretend that politheism is monotheism, saying that three gods are only one.

Don't you pray to the Son? and to the Father? Cause if you do, you are praying to two different gods, not to one ... or you would be praying to a God called Trinity and it is not the case.

Wrong.

It's ONE God and THREE Persons.
The Father is not the Son or the Holy Spirit.
The Son is not the Father or the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son.

They are three distinct Persons in ONE essence (God).

[Eloi]

[Replying to post 254 by PinSeeker]

Well, some call it pantheism, some call it politheism, some call it henotheism, ... I would say that is what the Bible teaches, and again:

That is their opinion. MINE is that you can not pretend that politheism is monotheism, saying that three gods are only one.

Don't you pray to the Son? and to the Father? Cause if you do, you are praying to two different gods, not to one ... or you would be praying to a God called Trinity and it is not the case.

PRETENDING that three gods are only one ... how would you call something like that?

[PinSeeker]

PRETENDING that three gods are only one ... how would you call something like that?

Very, very poor understanding -- which may be unintentional or intentional... or both, which seems to be the case. So much so as to falsely present an absurdity, which is commonly known as creating a straw-man argument.

Grace and peace to you.

[MarysSon]

[Replying to post 254 by PinSeeker]

Well, some call it pantheism, some call it politheism, some call it henotheism, ... I would say that is what the Bible teaches, and again:

That is their opinion. MINE is that you can not pretend that politheism is monotheism, saying that three gods are only one.

Don't you pray to the Son? and to the Father? Cause if you do, you are praying to two different gods, not to one ... or you would be praying to a God called Trinity and it is not the case.

PRETENDING that three gods are only one ... how would you call something like that?

And you'd be wrong about that.
I already explained that we believe in ONE God manifested in THREE Persons.

[Eloi]

[Replying to post 258 by PinSeeker]
I am not using any falacy, cause

1) I don't need that to show an obvious contradiction

2) I am a Jehovah's witness, and we are known for having enough biblical knowledge and enough capacity to reason based on it

3) we don't feel any satisfaction in using those methods

Don't you say that they are the God/Father, the God/Son, and the other one? And when you pray, don't you pray to the Father in some ocassions and to the Son in others?

If you pray to different gods, then you have more than one god ... no matter what you say to yourself to justify yourself.