CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

[tigger2]

CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

"trinity ...1. [cap.] Theol. The union of three persons or hypostases (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost) in one Godhead, so that all the three are one God as to substance, but three persons or hypostases as to individuality. 2. Any symbol of the Trinity in art. 3. Any union of three in one; a triad; as the Hindu trinity, or Trimurti." - Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, G. & C. Merriam Co., 1961. (emphasis added by me.)
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Athanasian Creed:

"And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other, none is greater or less than others; but the whole three persons are co- eternal together; and co-equal. So that in all things as is aforesaid: the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

"HE THEREFORE THAT WILL BE SAVED MUST THUS THINK OF THE TRINITY."
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"Trinity, the Most Holy

"The most sublime mystery of the Christian faith is this: 'God is absolutely one in nature and essence, and relatively three in Persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) who are really distinct from each other." - p. 584, The Catholic Encyclopedia, Thomas Nelson, Inc., Publishers, 1976.
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The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
"1. The Term 'Trinity':
"The term "Trinity" is not a Biblical term, and we are not using Biblical language when we define what is expressed by it as the doctrine that there is one only and true God, but in the unity of the Godhead there are three coeternal and coequal Persons, the same in substance but distinct in subsistence." - p. 3012, Vol. IV, Eerdmans, 1984.

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Challenges from scripture itself:

(A) Please carefully and thoroughly search to find a vision, dream, or clear description in scripture wherein God is visibly shown as more than one person.

(This is really not that difficult. Either there is a vision, dream, description, etc. somewhere in scripture clearly visibly showing the one God as three persons or there isn't. Either way, it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.)
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(B) Please show where in scripture God is ever described using the word "three."

(Either God is described somewhere in scripture using the word "three" or its clear equivalent (just as He is clearly described with the word “one� or its equivalent - “alone,� “only,� etc. ), or He is not. Either way it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.)
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(C) Please find clear, direct, undisputed statements (equivalent to “Jesus is the Christ� or "YHWH is God" which are found repeatedly in clear, undisputed scriptures) which declare:

“YHWH is the Son,� or “YHWH is the Firstborn,� or, “YHWH is the Messiah (or ‘Christ’),� or any other equally clear, undisputed statement that “Jesus is YHWH� (the only God according to scripture).
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Since the Father is clearly, directly, and indisputably called "God, the Father," many, many times, and the Son and Holy Spirit are said by trinitarians to be equally the one God (in ‘three distinct persons’):

(D) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures where Jesus is called "God, the Son," (equal to those which declare "God, the Father" – Ro. 15:6; 1 Cor. 1:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; 2 Cor. 11:31; Gal. 1:1; Eph. 4:6; 1 Thess. 1:1; 2 Thess. 1:2; etc.)

and,
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(E) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures (such as "God, the Father") where the Holy Spirit is called "God, the Holy Spirit."
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(F) If Jesus and/or the first century Christians (considered a sect of Judaism at that time) truly believed that Jesus was God, How could they possibly be allowed to teach in the temple and synagogues as they were?
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(G) If John truly believed a stunning new essential ‘knowledge’ of God that Jesus is equally God, why would he summarize and conclude his Gospel with, “But these [the Gospel of John] are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God…�

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(H) When the chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were attempting to gather evidence to kill Jesus, why did they have to hire false witnesses? And why did these same priests and false witnesses never say that Jesus believed (or taught) that he was God? Instead the high priest finally said to Jesus: “Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.� - Matt. 26:59-63 NIV.

Obviously these officials had never heard anyone accuse Jesus or his followers of claiming that Jesus was God!

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to post 258 by PinSeeker]
I am not using any falacy, cause

1) I don't need that to show an obvious contradiction

2) I am a Jehovah's witness, and we are known for having enough biblical knowledge and enough capacity to reason based on it

3) we don't feel any satisfaction in using those methods

Don't you say that they are the God/Father, the God/Son, and the other one? And when you pray, don't you pray to the Father in some ocassions and to the Son in others?

If you pray to different gods, then you have more than one god ... no matter what you say to yourself to justify yourself.

LOL! I never said you were not welcome to your opinion(s), Eloi. I never said that to any other Jehovah's Witness, and I never said it to any other poster here. Grace and peace to you.

[Eloi]

[Replying to post 261 by PinSeeker]

Well, thank you for your permission ... I guess.

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to post 261 by PinSeeker]

Well, thank you for your permission ... I guess.

"Permission..." LOL!

[Eloi]

[Replying to post 263 by PinSeeker]
Whenever you want to come back to the thread, remember my question:

Well, some call it pantheism, some call it politheism, some call it henotheism, ... I would say that is what the Bible teaches, and again:

That is their opinion. MINE is that you can not pretend that politheism is monotheism, saying that three gods are only one.

Don't you pray to the Son? and to the Father? Cause if you do, you are praying to two different gods, not to one ... or you would be praying to a God called Trinity and it is not the case.

PRETENDING that three gods are only one ... how would you call something like that?

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to post 263 by PinSeeker]
Whenever you want to come back to the thread, remember my question:

Well, some call it pantheism, some call it politheism, some call it henotheism, ... I would say that is what the Bible teaches, and again:

That is their opinion. MINE is that you can not pretend that politheism is monotheism, saying that three gods are only one.

Don't you pray to the Son? and to the Father? Cause if you do, you are praying to two different gods, not to one ... or you would be praying to a God called Trinity and it is not the case.

PRETENDING that three gods are only one ... how would you call something like that?

Well, I don't play make-believe or "pretend" in any way. I usually only remember (and answer) questions not asked in a loaded (and therefore ridiculous) fashion.

Grace and peace to you.

[tigger2]

[Replying to post 229 by tigger2]

This is a repeat of my blank posts to MarysSon (but not blank this time I hope).

In answer MarysSon post #212:

MarysSon clearly disregards all the evidence which neutralizes trinitarian subjective reasonings.

"As for John 1:1 - it's only a "disaster" for those who are ignorant in Scriptural language."

This is a totally untrue statement.

How many times have the manufactured trinity 'proofs' been neutralized by the sunshine of actual careful scholarship (sometimes by trinitarian scholars themselves)?

John 1:1c is probably one of the worst examples of wishful interpretation by most trinitarian Bible translations and comments.

http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com ... er_21.html

"Now – as for John 1:1, according to the Manual Of The Greek New Testament, Dana& Mantey, p. 147, this is a textbook example case of the Granville sharp’s Rule."

Wrong again. John 1:1 is not an example of the disputed "Sharp's Rule." There are a few examples from Paul's writings which some trinitarian translators choose one of two honest translations (and ignore the other) to get their 'proof' from Sharp's Rule.' There are other examples of this 'Rule' which even trinitarian translators have to translate in a non-trinitarian way.

http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com ... er_29.html


As for the "I AM" so-called proof, even many trinitarian-translated Bibles show their denial of this by not even capitalizing the so-called name. Among others these include the KJV; RSV; NRSV; ASV; NIV; NEB; etc.

http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com ... art-1.html

My advice would be to ignore this person until he can respond reasonably to the non-trinitarian answers to his disputed "proofs" from so many ignorant sources and then actually give rational responses to the OP CHALLENGES .

If ANYONE truly wishes to respond to the CHALLENGES in the OP, please do so. Please stop with off-subject posts.

[onewithhim]

For Jehovah to be the God of gods, it is logical to think that there are other genuin gods, cause God is not the God of "false" gods. That statement is implicit in the expresion "God of gods" and it is in tone with the rest of the Scriptures. We read:

2 Cor. 4:3 If, now, the good news we declare is in fact veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, 4 among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.

That is a god mentioned in the Bible, and it is not an imaginary god. Have you read that text before?

Then you are promoting polytheism.
There is only ONE God - and ALL of the other gods are false gods.

No, he is not promoting polytheism. Polytheism is when you worship many gods as equal. Worshipping the Trinity is an example. Three separate Gods are worshipped as equals. I ask a trinitarian, "Is the Father God?" They say "yes." I ask, "Is the Son God?" They say "yes." I ask, "Is the H.S. God?" "Yes." Count them---THREE Gods.

On the contrary, non-trinitarians, as I am, worship ONE God as the ONLY God that is above all other gods. That is not polytheism. That is MONOTHEISM. The belief that other gods exist does not make a person a polytheist.

It has been shown that Satan is a "god" (2 Corinthians 4:4), yet believing that he exists does not make a person a polytheist.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 259 by MarysSon]

Sorry, buddy. That's THREE GODS.




And also, I wanted to say that Sharp's Rule was debunked in post # 225, in case you skipped over it.


.

[MarysSon]

Sorry, buddy. That's THREE GODS.


And also, I wanted to say that Sharp's Rule was debunked in post # 225, in case you skipped over it.

.

Uhhhh, no - it's ONE God, manifested i three distinct Persons.
The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are ONE God - but the Person of the Father is NOT the Son or the Holy Spirit. The same is true for the Son and the Holy Spirit.

God is a mystery (1 Tim. 3:16).
It's utter arrogance to believe that YOU have Him "all figured out" . . .

[MarysSon]

No, he is not promoting polytheism. Polytheism is when you worship many gods as equal. Worshipping the Trinity is an example. Three separate Gods are worshipped as equals. I ask a trinitarian, "Is the Father God?" They say "yes." I ask, "Is the Son God?" They say "yes." I ask, "Is the H.S. God?" "Yes." Count them---THREE Gods.

On the contrary, non-trinitarians, as I am, worship ONE God as the ONLY God that is above all other gods. That is not polytheism. That is MONOTHEISM. The belief that other gods exist does not make a person a polytheist.

It has been shown that Satan is a "god" (2 Corinthians 4:4), yet believing that he exists does not make a person a polytheist.

First of all - your definition of "Polytheism" is wrong.
It's NOT the worship of separate gods as "equals". It's "The belief in or worship of more than one god" (Merriam Websters Collegiate Dictionary).

The Greeks were polytheists and didn't worship ALL gods as the same.
I suggest you do your homework . . .

As for Satan being a "god" - he is NOT. The whole point of 1 Cor. 4:4 is that he is a FALSE god. there is only ONE God - and ALL of the others are FALSE gods.
A true monotheist should know this . . .