Opposites attract

[Peds nurse]

My most precious friends, I hope this finds you all well.

I was pondering the reason we debate. Why are we here on this forum? In other words, why does it matter what God people believe in, or if they believe in one at all? Does it affect our families, our jobs, or our relationships in our communities? Do we get up in the morning, trying to navigate through a network of religions and belief's, trying to decide what God hat we might wear?

What brings you here?

I will start. I joined this forum, after I was debating a few friends on facebook. I loved the debate, but more importantly, found that I loved the people to whom I was talking to, and the challenges they brought to the table that encouraged me to dig a little deeper into why I believed what I do. This forum has been a huge blessing to my growth in understanding other people's perspectives, while solidifying my own belief in God. I have also developed a very sincere and deeply appreciative heart for the people on this forum. I have come to the conclusion that our belief in God does not make us better people, but rather equips us to better love people.

I look forward to reading your reasons for being on the forum.

[Divine Insight]

Why are we here on this forum? In other words, why does it matter what God people believe in, or if they believe in one at all? Does it affect our families, our jobs, or our relationships in our communities?

Yes, I have seen religion adversely affect many people, myself included, on many social levels.

There are clearly the political aspects to it. People using religion to belittle the behavior and life choices of others. People using religion to try to push to have their religion taught in schools as though it represents the equivalent knowledge of science or history. And clearly, even if permitted, this would create extreme problems in the USA where "Freedom of Religion" is a fundamental civil right upheld by the constitution. In other words, once religion is permitted to be taught in schools as though it represents a "Truth", then we must necessarily allow ALL religions to be taught in schools as thought they all represent "Truth".

So yes, I see religion as being a major problem for the advancement of humanity. It tends to teach that it's ok to believe in unproven superstitions as though they have somehow been verified to be truth, when they haven't been.

I have also seen documentaries where many people have been personally harmed by religious teachings, traditions, and accusations. I've even met people personally who have been deeply scared by religious teachings, traditions and accusations.

I myself have experienced belittlement and accusations for not believing in or supporting a particular religion.

And far more importantly, I have studied these religions long enough to be able to point out why they are necessarily false. So this places me in a position where I am capable of passing on this important information. I wish that there had been more activists to speak out against these religions when I was young.

~~~~

I have no sympathy for these religions precisely because they are aggressive, evangelical, and accusatory of those who don't join and support them. Why should I?

I also don't view my "activism" on this matter as an attack against these religions. To the contrary, I consider my activism to be a defensive reaction to the religion's constant evangelism and accusatory nature.

I actually see Islam as the greatest threat to world peace. However, we're not going to get Muslims to see the fallacy of Islam by preaching to them that Christianity has any merit. That's ridiculous.

This is why as an American, and as an "Official Christian" I prefer to speak out to people in my own culture. I was "there" in the religion myself and I have come to the realization that it's all nothing more than ancient barbaric and superstitious fables. So I point this out to "my own people" so-to-speak.

I don't even renounce or belittle people for wanting to believe in a supernatural creator. I point people in the direction of Buddhism if they want to believe in a supernatural creator. So I'm not even pushing secularism or pure atheism.

I have no problem with people believing in higher purpose to existence. But I have a huge problem with religions that need to bring everyone down who refuses to support their derogatory theology and agendas.

It's the "religions" I'm out to expose as being fraudulent. Not the "believers" of these religions. I view them as nothing more than "victims of ancient superstitions". They've been had.

I'm trying to help them as much as I'm trying to help those who are being harmed by these religions from outside.

~~~~~

Just as an additional note here. I would LOVE to be able to support religious people in their belief in a loving benevolent God. The problem is that when it comes to religions like Christianity and Islam, those religions are simply doing too much damage to support them. They preach too much hatred toward "unbelievers".

If everyone moved over to something like Buddhism I don't think religion would be a problem at all.

[benchwarmer]

[Replying to post 1 by Peds nurse]

Great topic!

Well, if I'm totally honest, I enjoy being right. Debating let's me test whether I really am or not. Sadly for my ego, I'm not always right

I also find it fun to be part of various discussions that I might not feel comfortable having face to face. I'm very introverted and don't do well in groups. To be completely blunt, I suck at conversation and never seem to know what to say while a discussion is under way. Online, I have time to think, reflect, look things up, and form my responses at my own pace. I have a chance to review what I'm about to 'put out there' and revise it multiple times until it sounds right and conveys what I want to put across. I probably spend hours coming up with some responses that would take other people minutes.

I'm specifically on this site because I like how it is run and moderated. It's not a typical 'flame fest' that you find in a lot of other places.

[OnceConvinced]

When I first started out here nearly 10 years ago I had come to a point in my life where I no longer believed in Jesus anymore. I was going through an extremely difficult period trying to adjust and deal with the fact I no longer believed. I was at a very low point and often cried out to God, begging him for a fresh touch or a boost of faith... anything.

I came to this site with the hope that maybe there would be Christians who would be able to answer some of my questions I had. Answers to the things I had been pondering. Questions the bible couldn't answer.

People often ask me, why come to a site like this? Why not go to a site that is solely Christian. Well the reason is I didn't want just preaching. I didn't just want to hear the same old stuff I'd been hearing all my life. The same old arguments that even I had used. I wanted to hear fresh ideas. I also wanted to hear arguments from both sides of the fence. So a site like this... one that does not just have a bias towards Christianity was the obvious place to come. A place where all could give their opinions and where evidence was required. I wanted real debate where I could give my views and not have to worry whether it offended anyone.

However as the years progressed I found that that answers I sought were not coming. In fact it just brought even more questions. I found that the skeptics had the better points and that the Christian arguments just didn't hold water. They were made up of mainly wishful thinking, fantasy and stuff that just wasn't true in reality.

A couple of years ago I came to the realisation that Christianity just couldn't be defended. I realised I didn't see any evidence for any gods. In fact the evidence seemed to be pointing to no gods, so I had to admit it. I was no longer even an agnostic. I was an atheist.

Here is my list of reasons why I come here now:

1) I spent over 30 years of my life diligently believing and serving the God of the bible. Then one day I discovered, to my horror, that my God wasn’t real. That I had spent over 30 years of my life, wasting a lot of time with religious nonsense (as well as non-religious nonsense). I do not want others to fall into that same trap. We only have 70-90 years of life! Not an eternity!

2) Due to living a Christian life I missed out on so many experiences due to the fact I believed certain things were wrong and that I should be putting Christ first in everything. Life is short. We do not have a whole eternity. This life is not just a test. We should not be beating ourselves up over our human nature. I do not want to see people missing out on making the most of their lives because of their Christian beliefs.

3) I was indoctrinated into Christianity from birth. Given no other options of what to believe. Taught the bible as if it were fact. I was told that evolution was a lie of the devil and Atheists were evil. But evolution is not a lie and Atheists are not evil just because they don’t believe in God. Indoctrination has to be stopped and as with me, the only way to be broken out of that indoctrination is to have ones faulty beliefs exposed.

4) Many Christians exaggerate and even lie about what the bible says, claims made about Jesus, their own lives, miracles, the things that Jesus has supposedly done in their lives. These things need to be exposed. People need to speak up otherwise others will be suckered into it. One thing that really irritates me on this site is when Christians claim certain things which I know are just not true. eg I wasn't a true Christian....Seek and ye shall find. I have to stand up and I have to say these things are not true.

5) Threats and persecution
Christians like to think they are the ones being persecuted, but that is hardly the case in this modern world. In fact it’s the opposite. Christians persecute atheists, homosexuals, people of other religions and they do it believing they’re righteous. They also mix that persecution with threats of hell and damnation and in some cases even take justice into their own hands. We need to speak up against this sort of bullying. It needs to stop and Christians need to start accepting people for who they are and quit trying to judge them and persecute them

6) Christianity being pushed on us. Not only indoctrination, but people wanting our laws to be biblical based. Wanting to insist on things like bible in schools. They are trying to push their fantasies onto us as reality. We must stand up against this stuff.

7) For the enjoyment of it. After over 30 years of bible studies I know a lot about the topic and I love to discuss it. I love to debate the topic.

8) Lack of acceptance of others
Christians tend to believe that we are all born dirty sinners and that we are in effect worthless and unworthy and they see themselves and others the same way. We are all in desperate need of a saviour because we are so filthy and evil. This is not a healthy way to live and it’s certainly not a healthy way to treat others. People are driven to despair because they are made to feel so dirty and sinful. People have even been driven to suicide due to not being accepted by their Christian families and friends because they are deemed to be filthy or perverse. They can’t be themselves. We need to start valuing one another more and accepting each other for who we are, even if we don’t necessarily understand each other.

9. Expecting God to rescue us
Many Christians have no interest in the wellbeing of this planet because they believe that they are in the end times and that Jesus will return and rescue them. Thus they do not appreciate that we need to spend money and effort on making this world a better place and to perhaps even explore other worlds. They do not care about diseases that could wipe us out because they think God has the whole world in his hands. They don’t care about the hole in the O Zone layer. They do not see this planet as something that needs to sustain life for thousands of years from now. They think it’s all going to end soon. This is dangerous thinking and we cannot allow people to think this way. We have to do what we can now to make this world a better place, not hope for some God to rescue us.

10. Desiring the end of the world
Many Christians so want the world to end so that they can be raptured up and taken to Heaven to be with Jesus. They actually look forward to these end time events and expect them to happen in their life time. Imagine the danger of having Christians with nuclear weapons, ready to put their finger on the button because they believe God wants to trigger the apocalypse. It’s a scary thought. We need to educate people and make them realize that there is no God wanting any of this stuff. There will be no rapture and Jesus will not be returning.

[ttruscott]

I look forward to reading your reasons for being on the forum.

I believe I was led here to discuss PCEC. I felt our pre-earth life answered all the divergences of Christian theology without having to base them on any blasphemy. I wanted to share what I saw as a logical and reasonable answer to the ubiquitous WHY's of theology. GOD's purpose, the necessity of our free will, GOD's holiness and the utter disvalue of evil are the building blocks of what I believe to be true.

Then when I found the terrible state of so many strawman arguments holding up a blatantly false depiction of Christianity being accepted as legitimate questions by many Christians, I felt called to defend / make my own apology for a theology as close to the truth as I could get so I've expanded somewhat.

[Neatras]

The science sub-forum is being filled with rhetorical games and fallacies that attempt to obfuscate what science actually is.

I can't change anyone's mind on this forum because their minds are made up. But I can make a presentation for what science is, and how it's conducted so that future viewers don't get the wrong impression.

Though I have had some fun in exploring some scientific topics with the more open-minded members of this forum, such as how evolutionary processes might occur, and how revolutionary discoveries shape our view of history. jgh's curiosity, and H. Sapien's experience are revitalizing in the face of those who use sly tactics to try and assert imaginary authority.

[Divine Insight]

The science sub-forum is being filled with rhetorical games and fallacies that attempt to obfuscate what science actually is.

I can't change anyone's mind on this forum because their minds are made up. But I can make a presentation for what science is, and how it's conducted so that future viewers don't get the wrong impression.

Though I have had some fun in exploring some scientific topics with the more open-minded members of this forum, such as how evolutionary processes might occur, and how revolutionary discoveries shape our view of history. jgh's curiosity, and H. Sapien's experience are revitalizing in the face of those who use sly tactics to try and assert imaginary authority.

You make a very good point. Many secularists who argue against the claims of theists do so, not to attack the theology, but to simply expose the fallacies and ignorance of the theists claims about science.

I just came from a thread where a theist tries to destroy evolution theory by pointing out that it's unrealistic to think that an ink factory could accidentally explode to produce the entire printed pages of an encyclopedia. Such a scenario has absolutely nothing at all to do with what evolution theory is even saying.

Such analogies only demonstrate an extreme ignorance of what the science of Evolution is saying. So theists are stepping on the toes of science without having any clue of what they are even talking about. That has to be addressed. We can't allow such ignorance to continue without pointing out its fallacy.

[Peds nurse]

Why are we here on this forum? In other words, why does it matter what God people believe in, or if they believe in one at all? Does it affect our families, our jobs, or our relationships in our communities?

There are clearly the political aspects to it. People using religion to belittle the behavior and life choices of others. People using religion to try to push to have their religion taught in schools as though it represents the equivalent knowledge of science or history. And clearly, even if permitted, this would create extreme problems in the USA where "Freedom of Religion" is a fundamental civil right upheld by the constitution. In other words, once religion is permitted to be taught in schools as though it represents a "Truth", then we must necessarily allow ALL religions to be taught in schools as thought they all represent "Truth".

DI...Hello!
I agree with your stance here, at least somewhat anyway. I think to allow one religion, they would have to honor all. This is not to say that although the schools cannot teach religion in a formal setting, the effects of religion are ever present.

So yes, I see religion as being a major problem for the advancement of humanity. It tends to teach that it's ok to believe in unproven superstitions as though they have somehow been verified to be truth, when they haven't been.

The schools do teach things that have not been proven. Are you saying that we should only believe those things that are proven to be true?

And far more importantly, I have studied these religions long enough to be able to point out why they are necessarily false. So this places me in a position where I am capable of passing on this important information. I wish that there had been more activists to speak out against these religions when I was young.

So, is this your purpose on this forum, to pass on your knowledge that certain religions are false because you have studied them?
~~~~

[Peds nurse]

[Replying to post 1 by Peds nurse]

Well, if I'm totally honest, I enjoy being right. Debating let's me test whether I really am or not. Sadly for my ego, I'm not always right

Hello BW!! I hope that you are well this evening!

I appreciate the honesty in wanting to be right. I think we all do to a certain extent.

I also find it fun to be part of various discussions that I might not feel comfortable having face to face. I'm very introverted and don't do well in groups. To be completely blunt, I suck at conversation and never seem to know what to say while a discussion is under way. Online, I have time to think, reflect, look things up, and form my responses at my own pace. I have a chance to review what I'm about to 'put out there' and revise it multiple times until it sounds right and conveys what I want to put across. I probably spend hours coming up with some responses that would take other people minutes.

That is very well said, BW!! If we mess up and post, we have the opportunity to edit Sometimes, especially with religion, it is very difficult to engage conversation in person. This is because we are face to face with those we could potentially offend. I am a rather slow thinker, so I don't think I would do as well face to face either. I like to bounce things around a bit before I answer...and I use the backspace key an awful lot!

I'm specifically on this site because I like how it is run and moderated. It's not a typical 'flame fest' that you find in a lot of other places.

Agreed!!

[Divine Insight]

So, is this your purpose on this forum, to pass on your knowledge that certain religions are false because you have studied them?
~~~~

Well this is certainly one motivation for debating against Christianity.

After all don't Christian value personal testimonies? The problem I see with that is that they only seem to value personal testimonies that support their religion and frown upon any personal testimonies that reveal that the religion is false.

Actually the reason I first joined this forum 4 year ago was to share my realization that the "historical Jesus" was most likely a mystic-minded Jew who actually embraced Mahayana Buddhism and was trying to bring the higher moral values and spiritual ideas into his home religion. It's clear to me that this is the most likely explanation for how the Gospels of Jesus came to be.

However, after being on the forum for a while I realized that there aren't many people who are interested in the evidence for that. Christians renounce it out-of-hand immediately because they don't want to hear anything the contests the Gospel version of Jesus. And the Atheists aren't really interested in alternative theories for how the Jesus story came to be either.

I was also interested in sharing my knowledge of Buddhism and even Wicca. This forum appeared to be structured to allow for the discussion of all religious views and ideas. However I quickly realized that this is actually just a war zone between atheists and Christian with an occasional Jew or Muslim popping in to express an alternative Abrahamic religion.

So I went with the flow. Like the saying goes, "When in Rome do as the Romans do".

Since debates for or against Christianity appears to be the heart and soul of this website I ended up just sharing my experience (my Christian Testimony) on how I discovered Christianity to be false.

As someone who approaches things logically I've come to the conclusion that this is necessarily so and there truly isn't any room for opinion on the matter. It's really no different from debating whether or not there is a rational solution to the square root of two. The only people left who think there could be are people who don't understand how it has already been proven to not exist.

I view Christianity the same way. It's not really open to opinion anymore. It's really just a matter of taking the time to understand why it cannot possibly be true as written.

And, as we have seen continually, even Christians appear to know this truth. Even they don't try to argue for a literal acceptance of the Bible. Instead, they too literally reject the Bible and offer subjective opinionated "interpretations" of the written scriptures that are intended entirely to reject what the scriptures actually say, and instead pretend that the Bible could have been about something else entirely.

This is the #1 Christian apologetic argument. The Bible can't be taken literally. You need to pretend that it is saying something entirely different from what's actually written in the Bible.

This is the current state of Modern Christian Apologetics.

So all I see are Christians constantly agreeing with me and confirming my conclusions and not even being aware that this is what they are doing.

They all apparently agree with me that the Bible can't be taken literally. Save for the odd-man-out like Ken Ham, for example.