Man is totally unnable to choose spiritual life

[Browner]

-- born with an inherited sin nature … many verses
-- spiritually dead in his sins … Ephesians 2:1-5, Colossians 2:13
-- a captive to the law of sin and death … Romans 8:2
-- a slave to sin, forced to obey evil … John 8:34, Romans 6:17-21, Titus 3:3
-- an enemy of God, hostile to God, opposed to God … Romans 8:7
-- spiritually blind and deaf … Matthew 13:13-15, John 9:39, John 12:39-40, Eph 4:18
-- unable to understand the things of God (they are foolishness) … 1 Corinthians 2:14
-- seeing the gospel as utter foolishness … 1 Corinthians 1:18
-- unable to believe the truth of the gospel because it is veiled … 2 Corinthians 4:3
-- blinded by Satan … Acts 26:18, 2 Corinthians 4:3-4
-- controlled/ruled by Satan John 12:31, 1 John 5:19, Acts 26:18, 2 Cor 10:4-5, Eph 2:2
-- deceived by Satan … Revelation 12:9, John 8:44, 2 Corinthians 11:14
-- a captive of Satan unto death … Hebrews 2:14-15, Luke 4:18
-- unable to be righteous by doing good works … Isaiah 64:6, Galatians 2:16, Titus 3:5
-- unable to be saved by his own desire or works … Romans 9:16, Ephesians 2:8-9
-- able to be saved only by the grace and mercy of God … Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:4-7
-- NOT allowed to choose ... God chooses only whomever He pleases … Romans 9:9-24

[dio9]

[Replying to Browner]

well you are right in one sense we don't choose to be spiritual or not. Mystics of all religions agree in the ground of our being we are aware of the presence of spirit.

[marco]

-- born with an inherited sin nature … many verses
-- spiritually dead in his sins … Ephesians 2:1-5, Colossians 2:13
-- a captive to the law of sin and death … Romans 8:2
-- a slave to sin, forced to obey evil … John 8:34, Romans 6:17-21, Titus 3:3
-- an enemy of God, hostile to God, opposed to God … Romans 8:7
-- spiritually blind and deaf … Matthew 13:13-15, John 9:39, John 12:39-40, Eph 4:18
-- unable to understand the things of God (they are foolishness) … 1 Corinthians 2:14
-- seeing the gospel as utter foolishness … 1 Corinthians 1:18
-- unable to believe the truth of the gospel because it is veiled … 2 Corinthians 4:3
-- blinded by Satan … Acts 26:18, 2 Corinthians 4:3-4
-- controlled/ruled by Satan John 12:31, 1 John 5:19, Acts 26:18, 2 Cor 10:4-5, Eph 2:2
-- deceived by Satan … Revelation 12:9, John 8:44, 2 Corinthians 11:14
-- a captive of Satan unto death … Hebrews 2:14-15, Luke 4:18
-- unable to be righteous by doing good works … Isaiah 64:6, Galatians 2:16, Titus 3:5
-- unable to be saved by his own desire or works … Romans 9:16, Ephesians 2:8-9
-- able to be saved only by the grace and mercy of God … Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:4-7
-- NOT allowed to choose ... God chooses only whomever He pleases … Romans 9:9-24

You have pointed out the barriers Browner, as Paul delights in doing. Once people accept they are sinful, unworthy, soiled, lowly, insignificant, dust, objectionable... then this confession leads, miraculously, to a discovery that they are full of grace. They are given a ticket to wait at a bus stop where the bus that holds 144,000 people will come along and, if the driver chooses their ticket, they can board the bus and have a high old time practising the job they did while previously working on earth, but with a different set of people. I believe they get to choose which age they will operate at and if anything requires rectifying - such as spectacles or hearing aid -this will be put right. Amputated limbs will of course be restored. We can extrapolate all this - apparently - from the Bible, if we know the code.

[onewithhim]

-- born with an inherited sin nature … many verses
-- spiritually dead in his sins … Ephesians 2:1-5, Colossians 2:13
-- a captive to the law of sin and death … Romans 8:2
-- a slave to sin, forced to obey evil … John 8:34, Romans 6:17-21, Titus 3:3
-- an enemy of God, hostile to God, opposed to God … Romans 8:7
-- spiritually blind and deaf … Matthew 13:13-15, John 9:39, John 12:39-40, Eph 4:18
-- unable to understand the things of God (they are foolishness) … 1 Corinthians 2:14
-- seeing the gospel as utter foolishness … 1 Corinthians 1:18
-- unable to believe the truth of the gospel because it is veiled … 2 Corinthians 4:3
-- blinded by Satan … Acts 26:18, 2 Corinthians 4:3-4
-- controlled/ruled by Satan John 12:31, 1 John 5:19, Acts 26:18, 2 Cor 10:4-5, Eph 2:2
-- deceived by Satan … Revelation 12:9, John 8:44, 2 Corinthians 11:14
-- a captive of Satan unto death … Hebrews 2:14-15, Luke 4:18
-- unable to be righteous by doing good works … Isaiah 64:6, Galatians 2:16, Titus 3:5
-- unable to be saved by his own desire or works … Romans 9:16, Ephesians 2:8-9
-- able to be saved only by the grace and mercy of God … Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:4-7
-- NOT allowed to choose ... God chooses only whomever He pleases … Romans 9:9-24

1) "Born with an inherited sin nature"........I agree.

2) "Spiritually dead in sins"......Ephesians 2:1-5; Col.2:13.....This is true; we all are until we learn about God, Jesus, and what they expect of us. Then we choose to accept this knowledge and act on it or not.

3) "A captive to the law of sin and death".....Romans 8:2.....Not necessarily "captive," if a person is set free by "the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus." Then, a person who was once captive is set free.

4) "A slave of sin, forced to obey evil".....Oh, you ascribe to the "the Devil made me do it" philosophy? That's a cop-out. No one is FORCED to obey evil. We may be a slave of sin before we accept the Truth, according to our inheritance from Adam, but we do not HAVE to do evil things. Remember I explained in one of my recent posts that there are TWO TYPES OF SIN?? Did you ignore that? John 8:38 does not say that anyone was FORCED to do the things of the Devil; Romans 6:17 says people are "slaves of sin," but that is because everyone has inherited sin from Adam, and until we become "slaves of God," we are living a sinful life. We can CHOOSE after we come in contact with the Truth.

The next 5 or 6 verses you cite are the same as in my #4 above.

5) "Unable to understand the things of God (foolishness)".......I Cor.2:14.....I think that has everything to do with a person's attitude about God. He may have no desire at all to understand spiritual things, like Esau in ancient times. He views the spiritual things as foolishness. I don't think it's because the person is hard-wired to reject spiritual things. (I Cor.1:18 would be the same.)

6) "Unable to believe the truth of the gospel because it is veiled".....2 Cor.4:3....It says: "And even IF our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing." Does this say that people cannot believe because the gospel is hidden from them?? No! Those persons have chosen to ignore the gospel. They have no interest in it. That is why it is "veiled" to them. God hasn't made it impossible for them to accept the Truth.


I'm taking a break for awhile. I need to get some fresh air and contemplate the Truth of our wonderful God who sets the Truth before ALL men and hopes that they will accept it.

[dio9]

[Replying to post 1 by Browner]

this is a one sided pessimistic view of human nature. Isn't it? This is not what human beings were created as. All those references crumble before the scriptural fact that humans are good. In fact very good. Which Genesis clearly states. How can you reconcile all the hopeless references of Paul with the original word of God concerning human nature? The ground of human nature is the very image OF God.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 1 by Browner]

this is a one sided pessimistic view of human nature. Isn't it? This is not what human beings were created as. All those references crumble before the scriptural fact that humans are good. In fact very good. Which Genesis clearly states. How can you reconcile all the hopeless references of Paul with the original word of God concerning human nature? The ground of human nature is the very image OF God.

Yes, man's nature when he was initially created was good. Because he always had freedom of will, a human could choose to do something bad if he wanted to. Adam did so. He desired independence from God; he wanted to decide for himself what what good and what was not good. Genesis also clearly states that.

[marco]

Yes, man's nature when he was initially created was good.

And it makes no sense, therefore, to say that evil could come from a nature that was created good. Free will doesn't come in to it. And it is wrong to suggest that an action changed man's nature. It is right if you want to build a religion based on unworthiness and punishment for sin. Where is Paul?

In any event there are good people and bad people today. To describe man as being essentially of a bad nature paints a false picture. Man does ok, with or without religion - though sometimes religion makes him evil. Look around the world today.

[Monta]

[Replying to post 7 by marco]


"And it makes no sense, therefore, to say that evil could come from a nature that was created good. Free will doesn't come in to it. And it is wrong to suggest that an action changed man's nature."

Perhaps it makes no sense but that's the reality of life.

Babies are born so innocent and somehow turn into monsters.
Once you kill another human being you are a killer.
The only way back is what Jesus said, you must be
born again starting with repentance.

[dio9]

[Replying to Browner]

Who do you think Paul is talking about here? His Christian brothers or pagan outsiders? He can't be talking about Christians .

[Browner]

[Replying to post 7 by marco]
Babies are born so innocent and somehow turn into monsters.

2 non-believing women I have known insisted that
young children learn disobedience from their parents.
But, I know children's disobedience comes from their inherited sin nature.
Scripture says ALL humans are totally filled with evil, sin, and etc.
This is, of course, from God's viewpoint.
A totally holy God see us as totally evil and full of sin.
All of this because of the rebellion, disobedience, etc. of Adam and Eve.