Just for the record this post is written for decent people to read. If you actually are a thief, then this post isn't going to make much sense to you.
Let's say that someone comes up to you and says the following:
"You are a thief! All you do is think about how you can get over on other people. All you do is look for opportunities to take what doesn't belong to you. You don't care about anyone but yourself. And you need to change your evil ways."
What would be your first reaction?
Well assuming that you are a decent person and you know these accusations are false, your first reaction would most likely be to ask this accuser, "Where in the world did you even get such a horrible idea about me?"
You know that the accusation is false right? So it's clear to you that all that really needs to be done here is to convince this accuser that these accusations are false. And even if you can't succeed in convincing the accuser that the accusations are false, you still know that they are indeed false accusations.
So, now if these accusations were made by some author of 2000-year-old religious texts what would change?
Would you suddenly think, "Gee, I must be a thief who is out to get over on everyone, and I don't care about anyone but myself"?
Surely not?
Questions for Debate:
Why should any decent person believe in an ancient religion that makes accusations toward them that they know to be false anymore than they should believe some stranger who just now came up to them making all manner of false accusations about them today?
You're a Thief!
Moderator: Moderators
- Divine Insight
- Savant
- Posts: 18070
- Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:59 pm
- Location: Here & Now
- Been thanked: 19 times
You're a Thief!
Post #1[center]
Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
of how well they believe they are doing
relative to what they believe a personal God expects of them.
[/center]
Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
of how well they believe they are doing
relative to what they believe a personal God expects of them.
[/center]
Re: You're a Thief!
Post #2[Replying to post 1 by Divine Insight]
Lets drop this "thief" example and get to what Christianity actually teaches about, that is "sin". Are you not a sinner? Are you a perfect person? Have you never regretted something you did or said? Have you always been the person you think you should be?
Lets drop this "thief" example and get to what Christianity actually teaches about, that is "sin". Are you not a sinner? Are you a perfect person? Have you never regretted something you did or said? Have you always been the person you think you should be?
- Tired of the Nonsense
- Site Supporter
- Posts: 5680
- Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:01 pm
- Location: USA
- Been thanked: 1 time
Re: You're a Thief!
Post #3Let's make Peds nurse the subject of your example. No one here would reasonably accuse her of being wicked, and everyone here is already aware of how irredeemable you and I are.Divine Insight wrote: Just for the record this post is written for decent people to read. If you actually are a thief, then this post isn't going to make much sense to you.
Let's say that someone comes up to you and says the following:
"You are a thief! All you do is think about how you can get over on other people. All you do is look for opportunities to take what doesn't belong to you. You don't care about anyone but yourself. And you need to change your evil ways."
What would be your first reaction?
Well assuming that you are a decent person and you know these accusations are false, your first reaction would most likely be to ask this accuser, "Where in the world did you even get such a horrible idea about me?"
You know that the accusation is false right? So it's clear to you that all that really needs to be done here is to convince this accuser that these accusations are false. And even if you can't succeed in convincing the accuser that the accusations are false, you still know that they are indeed false accusations.
So, now if these accusations were made by some author of 2000-year-old religious texts what would change?
Would you suddenly think, "Gee, I must be a thief who is out to get over on everyone, and I don't care about anyone but myself"?
Surely not?
Questions for Debate:
Why should any decent person believe in an ancient religion that makes accusations toward them that they know to be false anymore than they should believe some stranger who just now came up to them making all manner of false accusations about them today?
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this." -- Albert Einstein -- Written in 1954 to Jewish philosopher Erik Gutkind.
Re: You're a Thief!
Post #4Thats great! Lets take Ped Nurse as example, we should ask her if she is a sinner to see what she says.Tired of the Nonsense wrote:Let's make Peds nurse the subject of your example. No one here would reasonably accuse her of being wicked, and everyone here is already aware of how irredeemable you and I are.Divine Insight wrote: Just for the record this post is written for decent people to read. If you actually are a thief, then this post isn't going to make much sense to you.
Let's say that someone comes up to you and says the following:
"You are a thief! All you do is think about how you can get over on other people. All you do is look for opportunities to take what doesn't belong to you. You don't care about anyone but yourself. And you need to change your evil ways."
What would be your first reaction?
Well assuming that you are a decent person and you know these accusations are false, your first reaction would most likely be to ask this accuser, "Where in the world did you even get such a horrible idea about me?"
You know that the accusation is false right? So it's clear to you that all that really needs to be done here is to convince this accuser that these accusations are false. And even if you can't succeed in convincing the accuser that the accusations are false, you still know that they are indeed false accusations.
So, now if these accusations were made by some author of 2000-year-old religious texts what would change?
Would you suddenly think, "Gee, I must be a thief who is out to get over on everyone, and I don't care about anyone but myself"?
Surely not?
Questions for Debate:
Why should any decent person believe in an ancient religion that makes accusations toward them that they know to be false anymore than they should believe some stranger who just now came up to them making all manner of false accusations about them today?
- Divine Insight
- Savant
- Posts: 18070
- Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:59 pm
- Location: Here & Now
- Been thanked: 19 times
Re: You're a Thief!
Post #5MadeNew wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Divine Insight]
Lets drop this "thief" example and get to what Christianity actually teaches about, that is "sin". Are you not a sinner? Are you a perfect person? Have you never regretted something you did or said? Have you always been the person you think you should be?
And let's drop your example that anything less than perfection = a "sinner".
Let's take a look what what the Christian scriptures actually say:
Romans 1:
[28] And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
[29] Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
[30] Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
[31] Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
[32] Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
This is hardly suggesting that someone is merely "less than perfect"
And besides, a God who would create humans who are less than perfect and then condemn them to eternal damnation for being less than perfect would himself be far less than a perfect God. And thus by this very same line of reasoning he would need to be damned along with everyone else.
It's an impossible theology to defend.
[center]
Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
of how well they believe they are doing
relative to what they believe a personal God expects of them.
[/center]
Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
of how well they believe they are doing
relative to what they believe a personal God expects of them.
[/center]
- Divine Insight
- Savant
- Posts: 18070
- Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:59 pm
- Location: Here & Now
- Been thanked: 19 times
Re: You're a Thief!
Post #6All Christians are convinced that they are sinners. This is a necessary requirement of being a Christian. If they sneezed in church they would probably consider that to be a "sin" of some sort because they weren't "perfect" enough to hold back the sneeze.MadeNew wrote: Thats great! Lets take Ped Nurse as example, we should ask her if she is a sinner to see what she says.
It's not realistic at all.
In fact, if you change that "sneeze" to a fart they would probably get down on their hands and needs and confess that they deserve to be cast straight into hell for having farted in church.
[center]
Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
of how well they believe they are doing
relative to what they believe a personal God expects of them.
[/center]
Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
of how well they believe they are doing
relative to what they believe a personal God expects of them.
[/center]
Re: You're a Thief!
Post #7Should parents also take responsibility for their children's rebellion?Divine Insight wrote:MadeNew wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Divine Insight]
Lets drop this "thief" example and get to what Christianity actually teaches about, that is "sin". Are you not a sinner? Are you a perfect person? Have you never regretted something you did or said? Have you always been the person you think you should be?
And let's drop your example that anything less than perfection = a "sinner".
Let's take a look what what the Christian scriptures actually say:
Romans 1:
[28] And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
[29] Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
[30] Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
[31] Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
[32] Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
This is hardly suggesting that someone is merely "less than perfect"
And besides, a God who would create humans who are less than perfect and then condemn them to eternal damnation for being less than perfect would himself be far less than a perfect God. And thus by this very same line of reasoning he would need to be damned along with everyone else.
It's an impossible theology to defend.
And yes, sin is defined as "missing the mark", or being less then perfect.
So are you a sinner?
"Hebrew words for "sin" The Hebrew word most often translated as "sin" in our English Bibles is the word chata'ah (חֲטָ�ָה), which means "missing the mark,""
http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Medita ... ta_ah.html
Re: You're a Thief!
Post #8Ok, I sneeze and fart all the time, sometimes even in church, and i have never felt that way... Mr. "realist"...Divine Insight wrote:All Christians are convinced that they are sinners. This is a necessary requirement of being a Christian. If they sneezed in church they would probably consider that to be a "sin" of some sort because they weren't "perfect" enough to hold back the sneeze.MadeNew wrote: Thats great! Lets take Ped Nurse as example, we should ask her if she is a sinner to see what she says.
It's not realistic at all.
In fact, if you change that "sneeze" to a fart they would probably get down on their hands and needs and confess that they deserve to be cast straight into hell for having farted in church.
- Divine Insight
- Savant
- Posts: 18070
- Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:59 pm
- Location: Here & Now
- Been thanked: 19 times
Re: You're a Thief!
Post #9Now you're talking!MadeNew wrote: Should parents also take responsibility for their children's rebellion?
Yes parents should take responsibility for their children's rebellion.
Children rebelling against their parents can only be due to two things.
1. The Parents failed to be good mentors.
Or
2. The Children are mentally ill and need to be healed.
In the case of humans there's not much that can be done in either of these cases.
However a supposedly omnipotent God has no excuse for either of failings.
In fact, the very moment that you start comparing your God with human parents you've already implied that your God is as helpless and inept as human parents.
[center]
Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
of how well they believe they are doing
relative to what they believe a personal God expects of them.
[/center]
Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
of how well they believe they are doing
relative to what they believe a personal God expects of them.
[/center]
- Divine Insight
- Savant
- Posts: 18070
- Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:59 pm
- Location: Here & Now
- Been thanked: 19 times
Re: You're a Thief!
Post #10How can you say this after you just claimed that if you aren't "Perfect" you're a sinner? Just how imperfect do you allow yourself to be before you consider it to be a "sin"?MadeNew wrote:Ok, I sneeze and fart all the time, sometimes even in church, and i have never felt that way... Mr. "realist"...Divine Insight wrote:All Christians are convinced that they are sinners. This is a necessary requirement of being a Christian. If they sneezed in church they would probably consider that to be a "sin" of some sort because they weren't "perfect" enough to hold back the sneeze.MadeNew wrote: Thats great! Lets take Ped Nurse as example, we should ask her if she is a sinner to see what she says.
It's not realistic at all.
In fact, if you change that "sneeze" to a fart they would probably get down on their hands and needs and confess that they deserve to be cast straight into hell for having farted in church.
[center]
Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
of how well they believe they are doing
relative to what they believe a personal God expects of them.
[/center]
Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
of how well they believe they are doing
relative to what they believe a personal God expects of them.
[/center]