You're a Thief!

[Divine Insight]

Just for the record this post is written for decent people to read. If you actually are a thief, then this post isn't going to make much sense to you.

Let's say that someone comes up to you and says the following:

"You are a thief! All you do is think about how you can get over on other people. All you do is look for opportunities to take what doesn't belong to you. You don't care about anyone but yourself. And you need to change your evil ways."

What would be your first reaction?

Well assuming that you are a decent person and you know these accusations are false, your first reaction would most likely be to ask this accuser, "Where in the world did you even get such a horrible idea about me?"

You know that the accusation is false right? So it's clear to you that all that really needs to be done here is to convince this accuser that these accusations are false. And even if you can't succeed in convincing the accuser that the accusations are false, you still know that they are indeed false accusations.

So, now if these accusations were made by some author of 2000-year-old religious texts what would change?

Would you suddenly think, "Gee, I must be a thief who is out to get over on everyone, and I don't care about anyone but myself"?

Surely not?

Questions for Debate:

Why should any decent person believe in an ancient religion that makes accusations toward them that they know to be false anymore than they should believe some stranger who just now came up to them making all manner of false accusations about them today?

[MadeNew]

Thats great! Lets take Ped Nurse as example, we should ask her if she is a sinner to see what she says.

All Christians are convinced that they are sinners. This is a necessary requirement of being a Christian. If they sneezed in church they would probably consider that to be a "sin" of some sort because they weren't "perfect" enough to hold back the sneeze.

It's not realistic at all.

In fact, if you change that "sneeze" to a fart they would probably get down on their hands and needs and confess that they deserve to be cast straight into hell for having farted in church.

Ok, I sneeze and fart all the time, sometimes even in church, and i have never felt that way... Mr. "realist"...

How can you say this after you just claimed that if you aren't "Perfect" you're a sinner? Just how imperfect do you allow yourself to be before you consider it to be a "sin"?

Is not farting in church being a perfect person? Do you think God condemns us because we sneeze? Come on man... This topic is about sin, you worded it as "thief" but it is about sin and you said in the original post that you are not a "thief", but it is about sin, are you not a sinner?

[MadeNew]

Should parents also take responsibility for their children's rebellion?

Now you're talking!

Yes parents should take responsibility for their children's rebellion.

Children rebelling against their parents can only be due to two things.

1. The Parents failed to be good mentors.

Or

2. The Children are mentally ill and need to be healed.

In the case of humans there's not much that can be done in either of these cases.

However a supposedly omnipotent God has no excuse for either of failings.

In fact, the very moment that you start comparing your God with human parents you've already implied that your God is as helpless and inept as human parents.

God grants everyone free will, and i don't agree with your conclusion that parents should be blamed for their kids rebellion, and i don't agree that God should take responsibility for anyones own actions.

In fact, God has let us know about sin, and command us not to do it. God has detailed for us that we should live faithfully, but its Gods responsibility that we don't live the way he told us? So God could spread His message, he could let his word be known, but because he doesn't take control of our bodies, and causes our actions to do those actions, he should be blamed for that?

I dont agree with you.

And even more, if God caused us to have no freewill, that would be something we could hold against God. Like North Korea, or George Orwell's "1989", or whatever. We could blame God for not letting us be free, and have freewill, if that was the case. But that isn't the case, so instead you are saying because he grants you freewill, he should be blamed for your own faults...

This is utter nonsense.

[Divine Insight]

Is not farting in church being a perfect person? Do you think God condemns us because we sneeze? Come on man... This topic is about sin, you worded it as "thief" but it is about sin and you said in the original post that you are not a "thief", but it is about sin, are you not a sinner?

According to the Bible every human is a sinner. They have created a creed of "sin" that forces sin onto everyone. Even new born babies need to be "baptized" to wash away the "original sin" they were supposedly born with.

This religious cult proclaims that you are a sinner from the womb to the grave. No one can escape the accusation of being a sinner in Christianity. That's the whole point to the cult.

Also the question of whether or not there was ever a time when I committed a sin is a moot point. For me especially. I was born and raised as a Christian. I was baptized as a baby to wash away my "original sin". I still have my original certificate of Baptism.

Also the sin I committed as a child and all been forgiven by Jesus. In fact, I was a "born again" Christian so my sins were all washed away by the blood of Jesus as this superstitious cult claims. I became totally sin-free at that point in my life according to this religion. Not only that but according to this religion it would be impossible for me to ever sin again, becasue I became "born again" in Christ.

But then as time marched on, and I grew in education and wisdom I began to realize that this religious cult cannot possibly be true. According to the cult, this realization itself is a "sin".

Read Romans 1 that I just posted. According to Paul because I did not retain knowledge of this God I have been given over to reprobate mind which included all of the horrible nasty things that Paul cites in Romans 1:28-32.

Clearly everything Paul wrote is a lie. I am NONE of the things that Paul proclaims that I must be.

Therefore Paul is a liar. And my realization that this religion was never anything but a false cult to begin with has been confirmed.

Am I without "sin" today?

I certainly consider myself to be totally free of any "sins". But clearly my recolonization that neither Jesus nor Yahweh have anything to do with any actual "God" would itself be considered a "sin" in this religious cult. Just like refusal to believe that the Qur;an is the word of God, is considered to be a "sin" in Islam.

In fact, this is something you need to consider. If you reject Islam then in Islam you are a great "sinner".

This is just what these middle eastern religions do. They accuse everyone who refuses to join and support their religious cults of being "sinners".

[Divine Insight]

In fact, God has let us know about sin, and command us not to do it. God has detailed for us that we should live faithfully, but its Gods responsibility that we don't live the way he told us? So God could spread His message, he could let his word be known, but because he doesn't take control of our bodies, and causes our actions to do those actions, he should be blamed for that?

Absolutely a God should be blamed for this in the case of Christianity.

Your argument could have merit if there was only ONE religion in the entire world and everyone knew what God had to say and they weren't constantly arguing about what the God supposedly wants from everyone.

But that's not reality. Not only are their countless other religions both today, and throughout history. But even Christianity itself, being only a single off-shoot of the Abrahamic religions can't even agree on what their God expects from people.

So the idea that "God told us anything" is absolute nonsense.

I never saw any God who told me anything.

All I have ever seen in this world are competing disagreeing religions. All of which appear to be nothing more than superstitious fiction made up be unintelligent men.

There is absolutely nothing in the Bible that stands out as having been produced by the mind of a supreme Creator God. To the contrary the Bible contains absolute ignorance and immoral principles being passed off as supposedly being the word of a God.

There is absolutely no good reason to believe any of it.

If the God of the Bible was any kind of "parent" he was an extremely inept parent to be sure. Yes, I would hold the God of the Bible totally responsible for all the ills of the world including (and even especially) the actions of horrific dictators who have committed atrocities against countless innocent people.

There is no excuse for a omnipotent "parent" to allow a sick demented dictator to gain access to that kind of power.

And Free Will, is no excuse. To the contrary, if the wages of sin is death this God should have killed these mean dictators the first moment they sinned. Why bother respecting their "free will" after that?"

There is no excuse for this theology.

[Willum]

[Replying to MadeNew]

Does it bother you that most sin is biologically motivated, and you couldn't avoid those sins?
Be like me, don't be born in sin, be born in awesome!

[MadeNew]

[Replying to MadeNew]

Does it bother you that most sin is biologically motivated, and you couldn't avoid those sins?
Be like me, don't be born in sin, be born in awesome!

So, its just as biologically motivated for a rapist as it is for an adulterer, as it is for a pedophile, as it is for a fornicator. Biologically motivated isn't really a good way to discredit sin, is it?

[MadeNew]

[Replying to post 14 by Divine Insight]

First of all, you hate God, thats pretty clear, and thats something in that list. I don't buy that you are sinless DI, not for a second. You can say that all you want, and i have nothing more then to take your word for it, and that would be taking another humans word for being sinless. Sin has been shown to be true in everyone i know, even my father, a man i respect more then any other person i know, has clearly sinned. My friends, my teachers, my siblings, and yes myself. All of these people have sinned, but your sinless? You want me to take your word for it? lol... Maybe in your eyes, which is the problem, I bet Hitler thought he was a good person..

Christianity exposes sin, and guides people to faith and repentance... And there are the people who seek to live faithfully while repenting for their own sin, and then there are the people who don't even believe in sin. Not believing in sin is the very root of the definition of a psychopath.


And God told us there is evil and sin in the world. We have the ability to live faithfully throughout it. God told us to beware false prophets, like evil dictators. And Jesus suffered and died on a cross, while living faithfully. The pinnacle of righteousness. If some evil person killed you, i have a hard time believing you would pray for their forgiveness, by what you are writing i would guess you would curse God in that situation. Well Christ laid down his life for you, a sinner, so that you could live faithfully.

[bjs]

[Replying to Divine Insight]

If you believe yourself to be a “decent person,� then I can’t imagine why you would have any interest in Christianity. Jesus made explicit statements about calling sinners, not the righteous. If you think of yourself as a righteous and decent person then more power to you. I’m not sure why you would be bothered by the fact that other people believe themselves to be in need of mercy.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 16 by MadeNew]

You know, I have read what you have written like fifty times.
You really have no idea that you have cited sins with biological motives, have you? You think that citing extremes of "sin" you have knocked out the less extreme, but still hell-raising ones. You say rape, when checking out a women is enough for Jesus to send you to hell.

Christianity has taken your biological motivations, told you they were bad, and had you apply to "God" to get rid of them.

[Divine Insight]

First of all, you hate God, thats pretty clear, and thats something in that list.

That's the silliest accusation anyone has ever made toward me. But certainly not the first time it's been made.

Where do you get off claiming that I hate God?

I don't buy that you are sinless DI, not for a second. You can say that all you want, and i have nothing more then to take your word for it, and that would be taking another humans word for being sinless. Sin has been shown to be true in everyone i know, even my father, a man i respect more then any other person i know, has clearly sinned. My friends, my teachers, my siblings, and yes myself. All of these people have sinned, but your sinless? You want me to take your word for it? lol... Maybe in your eyes, which is the problem, I bet Hitler thought he was a good person..

Not only did Hitler think he was a good person, but according to Christianity he was. By words attributed to Jesus you'd be hard pressed to find Hitler guilty of any sins.

Christianity exposes sin, and guides people to faith and repentance... And there are the people who seek to live faithfully while repenting for their own sin, and then there are the people who don't even believe in sin. Not believing in sin is the very root of the definition of a psychopath.

Sin is a religious term. There is no such thing as "sin" outside of religion. You can talk about right and wrong, but not about sin.

And God told us there is evil and sin in the world. We have the ability to live faithfully throughout it. God told us to beware false prophets, like evil dictators. And Jesus suffered and died on a cross, while living faithfully. The pinnacle of righteousness. If some evil person killed you, i have a hard time believing you would pray for their forgiveness, by what you are writing i would guess you would curse God in that situation. Well Christ laid down his life for you, a sinner, so that you could live faithfully.

No God has told us anything MadeNew. What you are referring to is Hebrew mythology. Also, Jesus didn't forgive the Pharisees, to the contrary he promised them the greater damnation.

Also, if Jesus forgave those who blasphemed against him and brutally crucified him, then why would Jesus then condemn decent people for merely not believing in him?

How can you not see the absurdity of the Biblical narrative?

Look at what Jesus had to say about the Pharisees.

Matt.23

[13] But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
[14] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
[15] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
[23] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
[25] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
[27] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
[29] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

Notice also in verse 14 where he states that the Pharisees shall receive the greater damnation. He had already condemned the Pharisees. He can hardly forgiven them on the Cross for having him crucified. So these stories aren't consistent.

And besides, Jesus couldn't possibly condemn me without becoming a liar himself. Jesus has guaranteed my salvation, including my forgiveness. So it wouldn't matter in the Biblical fairy tale even if I was a sinner. My salvation is guaranteed by Jesus, and not even because of Jesus. According to Jesus my salvation is entirely due to my own character.

If this Biblical fairy tale were true I would be guaranteed eternal life in paradise in spite of the fact that you may not like it.

So my salvation is guaranteed if the Bible is true. And I don't even need to acknowledge Jesus or Yahweh, or Christianity, or anything concerning the Bible.

In fact, I could become a Buddhist, an atheist, or even a Wiccan Witch if I so desire and I would be saved according to Jesus.

But none of this matters, because Paul's words would still clearly be false. And the entire Bible would still be self-contradictory.

Whether I would gain entrance into the eternal paradise of this religious fairytale or not has nothing at all to do with whether or not the fairytale itself is true or false.