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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 5:46 pm  God Creates Evil? Reply with quote

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"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

-Isaiah 45:7 (KJV)


The Hebrew word for "evil" in this passage is Strong's Hebrew #7451 "Ra" which is defined as "bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally). This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun"

Christians try to say that this verse is not really talking about natural evil, or "calamity" (they argue this because peace isn't the opposite of evil), not moral evil, never mind the fact that the word appears in these passages:

Genesis 2:17 "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (ra), thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."


Genesis 6:5 "And GOD saw that the wickedness (ra) of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil (ra) continually."

Genesis 13:13 "But the men of Sodom were wicked (ra) and sinners before the LORD exceedingly."

1 Kings 16:30 "And Ahab the son of Omri did evil (ra) in the sight of the LORD above all that were before him."

And even more troubling for Christians is this:

"Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech..."

-Judges 9:23 (KJV)


"But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him. And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee. Let our lord now command thy servants, which are before thee, to seek out a man, who is a cunning player on an harp: and it shall come to pass, when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well."

-I Samuel 16:14-16 (KJV)


"And it came to pass on the morrow, that the evil spirit from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied in the midst of the house: and David played with his hand, as at other times: and there was a javelin in Saul's hand."

-I Samuel 18:10 (KJV)


"And the evil spirit from the LORD was upon Saul, as he sat in his house with his javelin in his hand: and David played with his hand."

-I Samuel 19:9 (KJV)


And like this previous passages, the word "ra" appears.

To any Torah believing Jews, is the KJV Bible right to translate "Ra" as "evil" in the KJV?
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 11: Sun May 14, 2017 7:45 pm
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Revelations won wrote:

Ted wrote:
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.


Reply: I find your last statement interesting and you make a very valuable point. I think this point should be articulated with even more detail. Thank you.


My premises are:
1. GOD cannot and never will create moral evil.
2. To create us on earth in Adam's sin is to create us as evil.
3. If we are created as evil in Adam we cannot be guilty of evil for we had no choice in matter...the guilty ones must be YHWH and Adam.

4. Therefore to keep GOD at arm's length from the creation of evil and to make our guilt to be true guilt then we must have chosen to be sinners by our free will.

5. Since we have no free will on earth being enslaved to sin, the necessity for our free will to have been free before our becoming human on earth as born sinners is obvious.

• The Satanic rebellion happened pre-earth....why not the fall of the elect?

• The sons of GOD sang HIS praises when HE created the physical universe, why does that not include us since we are sons of GOD? Are the angels who did not rebel with Satan the sons of GOD? Does that make all sons of GOD equal in creation though not in morality?

Does Matt 13:36-43 with no symbolism nor metaphor speak to this?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 12: Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:55 am
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Is it also a truism that there must needs bed an opposition in all things?

Consider that if there were not an opposition in all things, that the principle of agency could not effectively exist.

How could man be a moral agent to choose either good or evil it there were no choice available?

What would be the purpose of this mortal probation if we had not choices to make?

As I see it, this balance provided allows us our greatest possibilities for individual "ultimate moral growth and progress" or on the other hand "our ultimate chance of failure".

As Joshua stated: " choose ye this day whom ye will serve"

This God given power of agency is indeed one of his greatest endowments given to man!

Only by this principle can we become "joint heirs with Christ", and by no other means can this be accomplished.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 13: Sun Jun 25, 2017 1:24 pm
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Revelations won wrote:

Is it also a truism that there must needs bed an opposition in all things?

Consider that if there were not an opposition in all things, that the principle of agency could not effectively exist.
There must be a choice between options of course but a force of opposition from GOD just can't be any more than you can strike a match and darkness fills the room...

Quote:
Revelations won wrote:
Reply: As I see it, [b]there must needs be the force of evil as a necessary component in order for us to exercise the eternal God given power of agency for our ultimate development.[/b]


How could man be a moral agent to choose either good or evil it there were no choice available?
A force forcing you to do evil is not a choice. You claim there is both a force and a no force choice...one of your definitions would seem to need some finer tuning.

Two options must exist but any force compelling an innocent to choose either good or bad destroys the notion of free will.

Quote:
What would be the purpose of this mortal probation if we had not choices to make?
It was you who suggested there was a force of evil...whereas my point #4 asserts my belief in a free will:
Quote:
4. Therefore to keep GOD at arm's length from the creation of evil and to make our guilt to be true guilt then we must have chosen to be sinners by our free will.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 14: Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:01 pm
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Dear Ttruscott,

Thanks for your response..

You said: "There must be a choice between options of course but a force of opposition from GOD just can't be any more than you can strike a match and darkness fills the room..."


It would appear that your response is based on the assumption that "God created evil". May I suggest that this view could be based on a biblical statement based on a translational error. Although God may allow evil to exist, He is not responsible for evil, for evil is not allowed to exist in heaven. Lucifer using his gift of agency rebelled against God plan and many followed him, there was war in heaven and Lucifer (Satan) and the angels that followed him were cast out of heaven and sent down to this earth and were permitted to tempt man. As I understand it, we are given the gift and power of agency to learn to choose the right and serve God or chose evil and serve Lucifer.

If there was no opposition, of what purpose or point would the power of agency accomplish?

Remember, it was not I who claimed that God was the author of evil...

If such were the case then that inconsistency would destroy faith in our creator and he could not be trusted.

Where does God receive his power? Is it not rather obvious that His HONOR gives him his power? For if He had no honor, we could not trust him or have faith in him.


Your next response mirrors the same misunderstanding as found in the first:

"A force forcing you to do evil is not a choice. You claim there is both a force and a no force choice...one of your definitions would seem to need some finer tuning.

Two options must exist but any force compelling an innocent to choose either good or bad destroys the notion of free will."

Again, my response is clearly stated that "God is not the author of evil".

The account in the book of Revelation clearly demonstrates that the angels of God had complete freedom of choice even in God's very presence. I observe that God created Lucifer, but it is abundantly clear that Lucifer and all those that chose to follow him exercised their gift of agency in open rebellion in the presence of God and were cast out of heaven and sent to this earth.

Perhaps you can answer why he did not send them to one of the millions of other earths in this universe???

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 15: Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:07 pm
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Revelations won wrote:

I am responding to ttruscott's answer to my 2 questions:

I have 2 questions. When did evil actually begin? And was it necessary?

You said:
imCo
1. Evil started when the first person made in the image of GOD chose by their free will to reject YHWH's claims to be GOD. Since first implies greater commitment to the idea and greater commitment has greater power, I think this was probably Satan.

Reply: As applied to us, did not evil begin when Lucifer who was in heaven before the creation of this earth, begin when he rebelled against God's plan of salvation for his premortal spirit children?
The time and place I maybe agree with (depending on what you mean by your terms) but no, I do not agree with the why of Satan's rebellion.

As I wrote, I contend all spirits created in HIS image were created in a spiritual world (probably Sheol) before the creation of the physical universe or the earth or the use of human bodies to imprison the sinful so they don't plague heaven. Thus Satan's rebellion could not have been against the salvation of sinners.

So I conceive of Satan's response to the proclamation of the gospel of salvation to all who would accept YHWH as their GOD and put their faith (and unproven hope), in the work of HIS Son to save them from all and any future sin as a rebellion against YHWH's claims to deity deciding to put their faith (their unproven hope) in HIS being a false god lying about sin and evil and needing salvation for any reason.


Revelations won wrote:
Ted wrote:
2, No, evil was not necessary at any time for any reason. When, as per Col 1:23, YHWH made public HIS claims to be our creator GOD and first preached the gospel of salvation to all who would accept HIS deity and put their faith in the salvation to be found in HIS Son if they should ever sin in the future, IF everyone created in HIS image had chosen by their free will to accept HIS claims and put their faith in the Son then the heavenly state of full communion called the marriage to the Son would have been instituted at that time and no evil would ever have been created.


Reply: As I see it, there must needs be the force of evil as a necessary component in order for us to exercise the eternal God given power of agency for our ultimate development.
This necessitates that GOD create evil because HE needed it for some reason. What need has the ONE who is loving and righteous for anything that is the opposite of loving righteousness? HE is light in who there is no dark; HE is righteousness in whom there is no wickedness. That some Churches accept this blasphemy is in itself a great blasphemy.

The "God given power of agency," if referring to our ability to choose, does not spring from the force of evil so how is such a 'force' a necessity? All that is needed for our free will is that we are without coercion nor constraint and that a real/true choice be offered such as the one between good or bad, accepting YHWH's claims to be our creator GOD or rejecting those claims... Only the possibility of evil must be real.

The necessity of our free will rests on two points: 1. to keep GOD at arm's length from the creation of any evil, and 2 to make us actually guilty and liable to a just judgment for our sins. Making a 'force of evil,' in creation before we chose negates the first of these and interferes with the second.

PS: learning the ins and outs of the quote feature as I have demonstrated here will make replies much easier...

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 16: Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:37 pm
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Dear ttruscott

I think that in order to find the answers needed here, we must examine the theology relating thereto.

I think that one of the fist and fundamental truths which we clearly need is to understand that all of us existed and lived in heaven as spirit children of God the Father. It appears that in that spirit realm of our existence we were endowed with the God given power of agency. The Father knew that agency was an essential key to our eternal progress. With that agency, of course, there was accountability.

The following scriptures indicate clearly that we were fist created spiritually in heaven and had accountability to God by our agency and the free exercise thereof.

Numbers 16: 22 And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?

Numbers 27: 16 Let the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the congregation,

Malachi 2: 10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

Ephesians 4: 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Hebrew 12: 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

The theology as I understand it is that there was presented to all the spirit children of God his glorious plan of Salvation which could bring us back into heaven by the vicarious sacrifice of a Redeemer. This divine plan of the Father gave each of us the full power of agency. Only with this power of agency we have the opportunity for ultimate success or failure in achieving our eternal destiny.

Christ was in full harmony with the Father’s plan and volunteered and was willing to provide the necessary atoning sacrifice required to fulfill the plan and give all the honor and glory to the Father.

Another spirit son of God by the name of Lucifer rebelled against this plan and presented his own opposing plan wherein he would save all. His plan required that the Father give him all the glory and power of God. This opposing plan would be accomplished by force and deny all the spirit sons and daughters of God the power of agency or choice, thus further eliminating accountability.

The plan of the Father was accepted and sustained by 2 thirds of the host in heaven, but 1 third chose to follow Lucifer. The ensuing war in heaven resulted in Lucifer and those who chose to follow him, being cast out of heaven and the were cast down into this earth as shown in Revelation Chapter 12.

At this point we should maybe ask “ why did God the Father cast Lucifer and all the rebellious angels down to this earth instead of casting them down to some other planet billions of light years away so we would not be tempted”?

Why would an all wise and all knowing God do this?

Why would an all wise and all knowing God also allow His only begotten beloved Son to be sorely tempted by Lucifer?

What was His divine purpose in allowing this this condition of opposition to now exist?


I think that the ultimate answer lies in understanding that there must needs be a perfect balance in the “opposition in all things” .

We have the power of agency to choose either good or evil.

Have you ever wondered how important it is that we do indeed exercise our power of agency in our innermost thoughts? If we think evil thoughts to we attract those evil spirits that followed Lucifer? If we garnish our thoughts unceasingly with virtuous thoughts do we attract those holy angels?

As the poet declared “our birth is but a sleep and forgetting”. When we are born we have all memory erased and have no ability, but to suck and feed ourselves. We have to learn all things afresh. we stumble, we fall and eventually learn to walk and run, think, and learn. Is this all part of his divine plan, wherein we also must learn obedience to that plan?


As we are taught in Hebrews Chapter 5 we are tested and need to follow our great exemplar’s example of obedience.

Hebrews 5: 8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Getting back to this “war in Heaven” we are taught several things:

Revelation 12: 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Here we learn several things about the above verses:

There was war in heaven
Michael was apparently the chief angel who sustained the Fathers plan.
Lucifer was the head of the opposing rebellious force.
Lucifer and his forces prevailed not.
Lucifer and his hosts were cast out of heaven.
Lucifer and his hosts could never return to heaven.
Lucifer or Satan was allowed to deceive the “whole world”.
Lucifer or Satan who was once in heaven was cast out into the earth.
John the revelator heard a loud voice declaring that “now is come salvation”.
John also saw that the “kingdom of our God would be established”.
John further saw and identified Lucifer as “the accuser of our brethren”.
John further was shown that even in heaven Lucifer “accused them before our God day and night”.

We observe that this war which was first fought in heaven is continued and now fought on this earth.


There is much more that needs discovery and explanation on this subject, but this should suffice for now.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 17: Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:44 pm
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Revelations won wrote:

Dear ttruscott

I think that in order to find the answers needed here, we must examine the theology relating thereto.

I think that one of the fist and fundamental truths which we clearly need is to understand that all of us existed and lived in heaven as spirit children of God the Father. It appears that in that spirit realm of our existence we were endowed with the God given power of agency. The Father knew that agency was an essential key to our eternal progress. With that agency, of course, there was accountability.
I call agency 'free will.'

Quote:
The following scriptures indicate clearly that we were fist created spiritually in heaven and had accountability to God by our agency and the free exercise thereof.
Yes, I am in agreement with this though I haven't seen support for it before on this forum.

Quote:
At this point we should maybe ask “ why did God the Father cast Lucifer and all the rebellious angels down to this earth instead of casting them down to some other planet billions of light years away so we would not be tempted”?

[u]Why would an all wise and all knowing God do this?
It's like you saw my notes and liked my favourite questions!! Smile I know you didn't or you would know my answer which hinges on the character of GOD. Once all of the persons created in HIS image were separated by their free will agency to accept HIS deity or to reject HIS deity, HIS righteous holiness demanded that all those who scorned HIM as a false god and a liar about salvation be judged immediately, at once, because HE cannot abide living with evil.

Therefore the first thing HE did after the separation was finished was to call all those who accepted HIS deity and the salvation found in HIS Son to come out from among the evil ones and touch not the unclean things of their lies. Most elect did this of course but not all as some of them idolized their friends who had chosen to be reprobate non-elect over HIS command and rebelled against this call for judgment as being called to soon without giving them a chance to repent, as too unloving, or as too harsh a sentence for 'mere unbelief', etc etc. Thus they made themselves as evil as the reprobate and since they were under the promise of never being judged, the judgment had to be postponed until they could be brought to holness. This is written about in the parable of the good but sinful seed and the tares in Matt 13:27 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’

28 “ ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.

“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’

29 “ ‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest.
It must be part of HIS method of bringing HIS people to redemption that HE has us live with the demons to learn our lessons.

The one who exemplifies this level of sin is Eve of course who in the garden treats the serpent like a trusted pastor or mentor rather than her worst enemy.

Then GOD further divided HIS elect by calling all those who had stayed faithful so far to come out from among these sinful elect to avoid their lies and most did but some did not as they did not trust their loved ones to the mercy of GOD whom they knew hated the sin of their loved ones. This is the status of Adam who didn't follow the serpent but who 'ate' in support for his friend, Eve. This call for separation continued until every person had chosen for whom they would rebel against GOD's call for holiness.

Then the war in heaven was finished by Michael throwing Satan and every evil person to the earth and the story of the garden starts when Adam is sown into his new body of dust as is written in Matt 36:36... “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.”

37 He answered, “The one who sowed the
[sinful] good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil.

Thus we know how and why the sinful elect came to sin and why the sinful people of the kingdom must live with the reprobate demons!

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 18: Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:52 am
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Dear ttruscott,

I agree with you on multiple points, but perhaps it would be well to have further discussion and focus on one point at a time.

For example: At this point we should maybe ask “ why did God the Father cast Lucifer and all the rebellious angels down to this earth instead of casting them down to some other planet billions of light years away so we would not be tempted”?

1. Why did God cast Lucifer and his rebellious follows down to this earth?

Why did he not send them elsewhere?

What is your take on why he did this?

Regards,
RT

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 19: Mon Feb 05, 2018 3:02 am
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Revelations won wrote:


1. Why did God cast Lucifer and his rebellious follows down to this earth? [u]

Why did he not send them elsewhere?

What is your take on why he did this?


Please consider:

The word says Matt 13:27 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’

28 “ ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.

“The servants asked him,‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’

29“ ‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest.


We live together with them to further the 'all good things that come to those who are called to HIS purpose', ie, to love HIM...We feel the pain of their evil; we feel the suffering that our own evil causes others; we understand that they will never repent yet we feel the need to repent to quit spreading suffering by our own evil...

IF love could bring us to repentance then we would all be holy now because HIS love for us is real and strong. Therefore love cannot bering an evil person to repentance and all that is left is the pain of suffering to make us righteous, Heb 12:5-11.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 20: Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:22 am
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Dear ttruscott,

Ok, let me respond by asking one question at a time. In my last post I asked:
"1. Why did God cast Lucifer and his rebellious follows down to this earth? [u]"

What is your answer?

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