Big Bang 'All from Nothing' Nonsense - Scientists Wrong?

[ftacky]

The laws of physics tell us: Matter cannot be created (nor can it create itself).

However, the Big Bang scientists tell us everything came from nothing! How can so many scientists who know the laws of physics be so wrong?

Question: Has anyone ever seen something come from nothing? If you have, your eyes are lying to you.
Question: Do you believe something can come from nothing? If you do, you are lying to yourself.

This hasn't stopped secularists - bent on denying their Creator - from making up fanciful and unscientific theories to sooth their consciences. Here are some quotes:


"Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing...Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist." (Stephen Hawking: 'God did not create the Universe'; http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11161493).

"But the latest scientific consensus asserts that the universe sprang naturally from nothing because the total energy of the universe equals zero (thanks to negative energy). Nature abhors a void and fills it with quantum fluctuations." ('Is Everybody 100% Positive There is no God?', http://www.atheistnexus.org).

Richard Dawkins: "The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years AFTER THE UNIVERSE EVOLVED OUT OF LITERALLY NOTHING is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice." ('From tail to tale on the path of pilgrims in life', The Scotsman, April 9, 2005).

"It is rather fantastic to realize that the laws of physics can describe how everything was created in a random quantum fluctuation out of nothing, and how over the course of 15 billion years, matter could organize in such complex ways that we have human beings sitting here, talking, doing things intentionally." (Alan Harvey Guth, theoretical physicist and cosmologist, Discover Magazine, April 1, 2002)

"To the average person it might seem obvious that nothing can happen in nothing. But to a quantum physicist, nothing is, in fact, something." (Discover Magazine, 'Physics & Math/Cosmology').

"To understand these facts we have to turn to science. Where did they all come from, and how did they get so darned outrageous? Well, it all started with nothing." ('Fifty Outrageous Animal Facts', Animal Planet).

"Few people are aware of the fact that many modern physicists claim that things -- perhaps even the entire universe -- can indeed arise from nothing via natural processes." ('Creation ex nihilo -- Without God', 1997, Atheist, Mark I. Vuletic).

"This initial paucity of information is consistent with the notion that the universe sprang from nothing." ( 'The Universe Sprang From Nothing', Seth Lloyd, Physicist).

"Assuming the universe came from nothing, it is empty to begin with . . . Only by the constant action of an agent outside the universe, such as God, could a state of nothingness be maintained. The fact that we have something is just what we would expect if there is no God." (Victor J. Stenger, atheist, Prof. Physics, University of Hawaii. Author of, 'God: The Failed Hypothesis. How Science Shows That God Does Not Exist').

"Even if we don't have a precise idea of exactly what took place at the beginning, we can at least see that the origin of the universe from nothing need not be unlawful or unnatural or unscientific." (Paul Davies, physicist, Arizona State University).

"Some physicists believe our universe was created by colliding with another, but Kaku [a theoretical physicist at City University of New York] says it also may have sprung from nothing . . . " (Scienceline.org)

"Maybe the universe itself sprang into existence out of nothingness - a gigantic vacuum fluctuation which we know today as the big bang. Remarkably, the laws of modern physics allow for this possibility. (Pagels, 1982, 247. 'How the Universe can come from Nothing').

"The universe burst into something from absolutely nothing—zero, nada. And as it got bigger, it became filled with even more stuff that came from absolutely nowhere." (Discover magazine, April 2002).

"Space and time both started at the Big Bang and therefore there was nothing before it." (Cornell University 'Ask an Astronomer').

"It is now becoming clear that everything can -- and probably did -- come from nothing." (Robert A. J. Matthews, physicist, Ashton University, England).

"Prior to the singularity, nothing existed, not space, time, matter, or energy - nothing. So where and in what did the singularity appear if not in space? We don't know." (All About Science).

"So now you have an idea of just what went on in the early Universe, and how we got from nothing to something. But if you want the really short version, it runs like this, 'First there was nothing, then there was the Big Bang, and energy cooled down into matter, and we're made of matter, so here we are." (Karl S. Kruszelnicki, News in Science).

"If this admittedly speculative hypothesis is correct, then the answer to the ultimate question is that the universe is the ultimate free lunch! It came from nothing, and its total energy is zero, but it nevertheless has incredible structure and complexity." (Alexei V. Filippenko and Jay M. Pasachoff, 'A Universe from Nothing').

"It's no miracle, it requires no magic man in the sky, particle/anti-particle pairs just pop into existence constantly." (PZ Myers, Something Comes From Nothing; Pharyngula, February 3, 2011).

“The universe is flat. It has zero total energy and it could have begun from nothing ...
If you have nothing in quantum mechanics, you'll always get something. It's that simple.�
(Theoretical physicist Lawrence Krauss, 'A Universe From Nothing', October 21, 2009, Atheist Alliance International event).

“Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist.� (Professor Stephen Hawking, 'Stephen Hawking says universe not created by God', September 2, 2010, The Guardian Online).


Question: Why do so many scientists with PhDs believe all matter in the universe came from nothing? That is, mega-tons of dirt and rock - from nothing! They know the standard laws of physics. So why?

Jesus gave us the answer: The Narrow and Wide Gates (Matthew 7):

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

We will notice that Jesus made no mention of educational status. This is because, whether we on the broad road running away from God or on the narrow road running to God, our education and intellect is not the key - instead, the key is our motives and attitudes.

Matthew 5: Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.

Question: What is the condition of your heart? Are you prejudiced against God?

Instead of entertaining fairy tales (which violate the laws of physics) about how everything came from nothing, we all need to heed these words:

“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened." (Matthew 7)

"You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart." (Jeremiah 29).

Do this experiment: Pray God would open you eyes, then read the Bible daily with an open mind. I suggest starting at Matthew.


What do you think?

[Willum]

[Replying to post 50 by theStudent]

I didn't address that "matter is not energy," because it is not germane to the point. It is a red herring, or a wild goose, a subject for another topic, perhaps, but neither confirms or supports anything we are discussing.

Oh, so it has been sitting there for eons...
What caused the change? What caused the transformation?

What do you think it has been doing for eons?
What causes everything to change? The same things then as now. Gravity, electrical potential, nuclear forces, equilibrium. Nothing new.

What caused the after effects - Hydrogen, Big Bang...?

I don't think I mentioned any after effects. What caused the BB?
Note I am not being patient with your little flip of the vocabulary. You were advocating for a spurious creation. Caused is not creating.
And it seems I must repeat myself: Nothing caused hydrogen: The hydrogen in the glass of water you might drink is uncaused since the BB, and before the BB, it was just another kind of atom called a boson. What caused the bosons to change to hydrogen is the same things that are changing the hydrogen in the Sun into helium.

Now, you will probably ask, "but what created those forces?"
Well look around, what is creating them now is exactly what created them then. It doesn't look to me like God is holding the water in the oceans. He wasn't causing stars to coalesce trillions of years ago, either.

As you can see, there is a reason for the universe, but an intelligent causer isn't required, and a creator is impossible.

[theStudent]

[Replying to post 51 by Willum]

As you can see, there is a reason for the universe, but an intelligent causer isn't required, and a creator is impossible.

No. I don't see that at all.
All I see are three big fat red herrings.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 51 by Willum]

As you can see, there is a reason for the universe, but an intelligent causer isn't required, and a creator is impossible.

No. I don't see that at all.
All I see are three big fat red herrings.

Oh, well, the solution is simple then. Just read my last two posts until you understand them. Any 'redherringness,' will resolve itself to comprehension, adroitly.
If you have any questions at all, please call on me brother, it is really very simple, although it may seem daunting at first - and I will be glad to explain anything further.
Fraternally yours,

[PghPanther]

The laws of physics tell us: Matter cannot be created (nor can it create itself).

However, the Big Bang scientists tell us everything came from nothing! How can so many scientists who know the laws of physics be so wrong?

Question: Has anyone ever seen something come from nothing? If you have, your eyes are lying to you.
Question: Do you believe something can come from nothing? If you do, you are lying to yourself.

This hasn't stopped secularists - bent on denying their Creator - from making up fanciful and unscientific theories to sooth their consciences. Here are some quotes:


"Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing...Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist." (Stephen Hawking: 'God did not create the Universe'; http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11161493).

"But the latest scientific consensus asserts that the universe sprang naturally from nothing because the total energy of the universe equals zero (thanks to negative energy). Nature abhors a void and fills it with quantum fluctuations." ('Is Everybody 100% Positive There is no God?', http://www.atheistnexus.org).

Richard Dawkins: "The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years AFTER THE UNIVERSE EVOLVED OUT OF LITERALLY NOTHING is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice." ('From tail to tale on the path of pilgrims in life', The Scotsman, April 9, 2005).

"It is rather fantastic to realize that the laws of physics can describe how everything was created in a random quantum fluctuation out of nothing, and how over the course of 15 billion years, matter could organize in such complex ways that we have human beings sitting here, talking, doing things intentionally." (Alan Harvey Guth, theoretical physicist and cosmologist, Discover Magazine, April 1, 2002)

"To the average person it might seem obvious that nothing can happen in nothing. But to a quantum physicist, nothing is, in fact, something." (Discover Magazine, 'Physics & Math/Cosmology').

"To understand these facts we have to turn to science. Where did they all come from, and how did they get so darned outrageous? Well, it all started with nothing." ('Fifty Outrageous Animal Facts', Animal Planet).

"Few people are aware of the fact that many modern physicists claim that things -- perhaps even the entire universe -- can indeed arise from nothing via natural processes." ('Creation ex nihilo -- Without God', 1997, Atheist, Mark I. Vuletic).

"This initial paucity of information is consistent with the notion that the universe sprang from nothing." ( 'The Universe Sprang From Nothing', Seth Lloyd, Physicist).

"Assuming the universe came from nothing, it is empty to begin with . . . Only by the constant action of an agent outside the universe, such as God, could a state of nothingness be maintained. The fact that we have something is just what we would expect if there is no God." (Victor J. Stenger, atheist, Prof. Physics, University of Hawaii. Author of, 'God: The Failed Hypothesis. How Science Shows That God Does Not Exist').

"Even if we don't have a precise idea of exactly what took place at the beginning, we can at least see that the origin of the universe from nothing need not be unlawful or unnatural or unscientific." (Paul Davies, physicist, Arizona State University).

"Some physicists believe our universe was created by colliding with another, but Kaku [a theoretical physicist at City University of New York] says it also may have sprung from nothing . . . " (Scienceline.org)

"Maybe the universe itself sprang into existence out of nothingness - a gigantic vacuum fluctuation which we know today as the big bang. Remarkably, the laws of modern physics allow for this possibility. (Pagels, 1982, 247. 'How the Universe can come from Nothing').

"The universe burst into something from absolutely nothing—zero, nada. And as it got bigger, it became filled with even more stuff that came from absolutely nowhere." (Discover magazine, April 2002).

"Space and time both started at the Big Bang and therefore there was nothing before it." (Cornell University 'Ask an Astronomer').

"It is now becoming clear that everything can -- and probably did -- come from nothing." (Robert A. J. Matthews, physicist, Ashton University, England).

"Prior to the singularity, nothing existed, not space, time, matter, or energy - nothing. So where and in what did the singularity appear if not in space? We don't know." (All About Science).

"So now you have an idea of just what went on in the early Universe, and how we got from nothing to something. But if you want the really short version, it runs like this, 'First there was nothing, then there was the Big Bang, and energy cooled down into matter, and we're made of matter, so here we are." (Karl S. Kruszelnicki, News in Science).

"If this admittedly speculative hypothesis is correct, then the answer to the ultimate question is that the universe is the ultimate free lunch! It came from nothing, and its total energy is zero, but it nevertheless has incredible structure and complexity." (Alexei V. Filippenko and Jay M. Pasachoff, 'A Universe from Nothing').

"It's no miracle, it requires no magic man in the sky, particle/anti-particle pairs just pop into existence constantly." (PZ Myers, Something Comes From Nothing; Pharyngula, February 3, 2011).

“The universe is flat. It has zero total energy and it could have begun from nothing ...
If you have nothing in quantum mechanics, you'll always get something. It's that simple.�
(Theoretical physicist Lawrence Krauss, 'A Universe From Nothing', October 21, 2009, Atheist Alliance International event).

“Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist.� (Professor Stephen Hawking, 'Stephen Hawking says universe not created by God', September 2, 2010, The Guardian Online).


Question: Why do so many scientists with PhDs believe all matter in the universe came from nothing? That is, mega-tons of dirt and rock - from nothing! They know the standard laws of physics. So why?

Jesus gave us the answer: The Narrow and Wide Gates (Matthew 7):

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

We will notice that Jesus made no mention of educational status. This is because, whether we on the broad road running away from God or on the narrow road running to God, our education and intellect is not the key - instead, the key is our motives and attitudes.

Matthew 5: Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.

Question: What is the condition of your heart? Are you prejudiced against God?

Instead of entertaining fairy tales (which violate the laws of physics) about how everything came from nothing, we all need to heed these words:

“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened." (Matthew 7)

"You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart." (Jeremiah 29).

Do this experiment: Pray God would open you eyes, then read the Bible daily with an open mind. I suggest starting at Matthew.


What do you think?

You are clueless........and lost without understanding how science works........let me give you a tip.

First find out and study what is current in science. See in theology you have all the answers and have to back engineer everything in an attempt to make sense of your absolute truth claims...............but science is a process that revises or rejects any models that can be superseded by more accurate and precise models. That is its strength in which theists can't bear to deal with the fact that truth claims when they are provisional in science (based on the evidence and data of reality) are subject to revision and change over time if the evidence dictates it.

Now with that out of the way you have no idea of what is defined as "nothing" stated in scientific terms these days......

The "something" we see all around us in the universe today.....include the arrow of time (increased entropy) may be nothing for than a reconfiguration of a prior state before the singularity expansion of the universe from that state.

So that the "nothing" before the universe.......and the "something" we see today are really the same thing but in reconfigured dimensional realities..........

Much work is needed to be done in this area but we are beginning to see clues of this in that the net energy of the universe we live in equals zero is a huge clue to what is going on with understanding this...............string theory points in such a direction but needs validation which the LHC in Cern is working towards finding particle confirmation of such realities......

Theists who dabble in astrophysics with claims like you just stated and misunderstood quotes here and there are pathetic attempts that are decades and in some cases centuries behind the march of progress in scientific discoveries within astrophysics and its related disciplines..........

Now go get an education on the subject before you think it fails or validates your ancient fairy tales.........

[PghPanther]

The laws of physics tell us: Matter cannot be created (nor can it create itself).

However, the Big Bang scientists tell us everything came from nothing! How can so many scientists who know the laws of physics be so wrong?

What you have just stated is extremely naive and does not represent modern science. The claim that matter/energy must be conserved only applies in macro situations. Cosmologists now have a much deeper understanding of physics and believe that gravity may play a large roll in this conservation law. Energy/matter may indeed be created from nothing providing that you also create a gravitational field to offset it. It is believed that this may have been precisely what happened during the Big Bang. The universe may ultimately sum to zero. The universe may indeed be the ultimate free lunch.

So you are wrong about what modern scientists actually know.

Do this experiment: Pray God would open you eyes, then read the Bible daily with an open mind. I suggest starting at Matthew.


What do you think?

I think you are attempting to use the Science and Religion forum as a pulpit for preaching Christian Evangelism.

Why should we start reading the Bible at Matthew? That's in the New Testament. It was also copied largely from Mark so shouldn't a person read Mark first, and also be told that the ending of Mark was added many years after Mark had been written? Also if we are going to learn about this Biblical God we should start reading the Bible at Genesis Chapter 1. After all, Jesus isn't going to make any sense at all until we have previously learned that Yahweh is out to hatefully condemn us to death for the crimes of our ancestors.

In short, it makes no sense to place your faith in the idea that Jesus can "save" you from condemnation until you FIRST place your faith in the idea that Yahweh is out to condemn you.

So before you even speak to me about Jesus first convince me that Yahweh exists and hates my guts. Because until you've convinced me of that I would have no need of any "salvation" or grace that Jesus is supposedly offering.

You need to FIRST convince me that some jealous hateful irate God is out to condemn me. Otherwise it would be silly to expect me to think that I would need his demigod Son as my "savior".

You would also need to FIRST own up to the fact that you are totally ignorant of modern science and that you have no clue what modern scientists actually know. Until you do that I see no reason to believe that you are even willing to acknowledge any actual truths.

Actually God doesn't hate your guts..............he loves you ......but with one small little caveat.............and that is he hates your sins so much that he's going to burn you in hell for it without Christ's atonement for your sin.........nice huh?

Makes as much sense as killing a pet out in my backyard as a sacrifice for my garden to grow better by making it rain....

[PghPanther]

[Replying to post 12 by OnceConvinced]

I for one don't believe that things can come from nothing. Even if there was a big bang there had to be something there before it happened. It stands to reason. I see no reason to say "goddidit" though.

I used to believe that things could come from nothing. I used to believe in a god that came from nothing. I used to believe that this god could conjure things out of nothing by simply commanding it to appear. eg, "Let there be light!"

How could God come from nothing?
Nothing plus nothing is nothing.
The Bible says God had no beginning. He is the beginning.
He always existed.
He began to create - the universe was not the first creation.
I think we need to get the idea out of our heads that we know all there is to know, that we would presume to think that God could not always exist.
Let them keep searching for the Theory of Everything - for them they imagine they will know "the mind of God".
Does that not sound laughable to you guys?

Don't you believe that God came from nothing? And that he creates things out of nothing?

No. As explained above.

Pray to something we don't believe in? That makes no sense at all. Why would we ask our eyes to be opened when our eyes are already open?

You're are right.
It does not make sense to pray if you don't believe. But it's a start.

I think if you are going to suggest we should pray, then you might as well tell us to go and rub a lamp and hope a genie pops out.

Forget I said this [strike] But it's a start.[/strike]

The Bible nor God could validate it is the beginning or end (alpha and omega) nor eternal or infinite................why?

Simple the concept of claiming that is nonsense...

If God says has always been how could he validate that?

He would have to first wait until eternity has been completed and be apart from it to then claim he has existed within all of eternity............

Well you can't wait until the end of eternity because it doesn't end!

but he would need to do that to validate that he is eternal or otherwise he doesn't know if he will last eternally he can only claim this..................a complete fail on the part of these claims by this so called God.

Of course you only know this by the ancient prescientific superstitious cultures that wrote this stuff down and claimed it was a revelation from this God.....

I'm thinking these people who wrote this stuff thinking it was reality didn't think it out very well or would be embarrassed to be challenged on it by 21st century critical analysis.........

[theStudent]

[Replying to post 56 by PghPanther]

The Bible nor God could validate it is the beginning or end (alpha and omega) nor eternal or infinite................why?

Simple the concept of claiming that is nonsense...

If God says has always been how could he validate that?

He would have to first wait until eternity has been completed and be apart from it to then claim he has existed within all of eternity............

Well you can't wait until the end of eternity because it doesn't end!

but he would need to do that to validate that he is eternal or otherwise he doesn't know if he will last eternally he can only claim this..................a complete fail on the part of these claims by this so called God.

Of course you only know this by the ancient prescientific superstitious cultures that wrote this stuff down and claimed it was a revelation from this God.....

I'm thinking these people who wrote this stuff thinking it was reality didn't think it out very well or would be embarrassed to be challenged on it by 21st century critical analysis.........

Sorry. It's probably my fault - I don't seem to understand anything you said here.
I don't know what education I would need to do so, but it might be helpful if you make yourself a bit more understandable - at least in my case.
Again... my apologizes.

[theStudent]

Ah. It seems the cloud over my brain has cleared a bit.
You want to know how God would know that he is the beginning, and has no end.
Great question.

I'll let you know the answer when you let me know how a puny human being with limited knowledge, understanding, and wisdom, and vastly superior technology compared to an extremely advanced intelligence, can possibly know that the universe - in which they exist as a mere speck, and which they have a idea as insignificant as a grain of salt, - always exited and is eternal.

[Witness2U]

[Replying to post 1 by ftacky]

If you were one of God's chosen one's who testify to every word formed in your mind via the Holy Spirit, then you would learn how God created everything from his thoughts. The ideas God got to create everything we experience came from somewhere that we can't possibly see and God hasn't yet to tell us where he got his ideas from.

[benchwarmer]

[Replying to post 1 by ftacky]

If you were one of God's chosen one's who testify to every word formed in your mind via the Holy Spirit, then you would learn how God created everything from his thoughts. The ideas God got to create everything we experience came from somewhere that we can't possibly see and God hasn't yet to tell us where he got his ideas from.

I'm sorry, but that has to be one of the most pointless posts I've seen in the Science and Religion sub forum. You do realize we expect claims to be backed up by evidence here right? You can believe God speaks to you all you want and you'll get no argument from me until you decide to try and use that as evidence for a claim here.

If you've got some actual evidence that speaks to the OP or in refutation or support of another posters comments then fire away. If all you've got are voices in your head, you are not going to make any headway in here.